Re: Update on feedback on US-based meetings, and IETF 102

[Toerless Eckert <[e-mail]>]

Jordi,

None of the URLs seems to contradict that english is the most widely spoken second language.
And you also did not make an argument why it would make more sense to select the language
based on first language vs. second language speakers.

Also note that "second language" is just a good starting point. More importantly,
you want to have some common language in a professional area. And try to change that slower
than average human lifetime, so that professional experts are not rendered useless because
they can not learn another language at higher age.

In computer/networking etc. this is english. That has mostly historical reasons,
but IMHO its quite a good choice: It is easier to learn, and there is a high tolerance
for even mediocre language proficiencies in countries that commonly use it. To put it
into the original context of this thread: Only in the USA can you be interrogated and
potentially thrown out of the country by an immigrations officer that speaks the native
language worse than you!

Or you can just count the languages used in open source code comments on the Internet ;-)

Cheers
    Toerless

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:01:37AM +0200, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
> The problem comes from non-being a native speaker, as definitively that means that many times you ???translate??? from your mother tongue. And in this case, it seems, according to many sources, English and Chinese is declining across the time vs Spanish. Most of the sources state that Spanish is the 2nd one right now, some indicate it is Hindi, but English is always after Spanish (again, native speakers):
> 
> https://www.tomedes.com/top-10-languages-natively-spoken.php
> 
> http://www.vistawide.com/languages/top_30_languages.htm
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_demography
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers
> 
> The latest info from 2016, which I???ve found only in spanish, seems to confirm the trend and in 2016 the censed number of native spanish speakers raised to 472 millions, 567 as second language, which agains confirms Chinesse being the first, Spanish the second (7,8% of total population).
> 
> http://www.cervantes.es/imagenes/File/prensa/EspanolLenguaViva16.pdf
> 
> Regards,
> Jordi
>  
> 
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: ietf <[e-mail]> en nombre de Toerless Eckert <[e-mail]>
> Responder a: <[e-mail]>
> Fecha: martes, 18 de abril de 2017, 23:09
> Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[e-mail]>
> CC: "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>
> Asunto: Re: Update on feedback on US-based meetings, and IETF 102
> 
>     On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:54:09PM +0200, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
>     > This shows something that I believe most of the native English IETF participants usually don???t realize when having discussion (I???m referring here in general, also technical discussions) with non-native speakers, and how difficult is for the others. Maybe we should switch to Chinese as the default IETF language, or Spanish, as they have more speakers worldwide than English!
>     
>     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers
>     
>     According to that page, spanish does not have more speakers worldwide than english, but
>     rather the opposite. And IMHO, the relevant number is really just the number of L2
>     (second language) speakers, and thats lead by english, followed by malay, french,
>     mandarin, arabic, hindi, russian, urdu, swahili and then spanish!
>     
>     > I???m still believe that IAOC attitude is not justified at all, and if we don???t have answers from them by next Monday, we should consider a recall process. Hopefully is not the case.
>     
>     What do you think is the IAOC attitude ? All i read was very noncommittal and "we
>     still collect information".
>     
>     I do not even know what the metric for selection is. I hope it is not to make the
>     most vocal mailing list participants most happy. I would start with excluding the least
>     number of candidate participants excluded by travel policies, then the lowest price for
>     median particiants (flight, hotel, food) and then most convenient. I think
>     IAOC somehow takes these factors into account, but i can not remember that they did send 
>     their most concrete data for these factors for various countries to the mailing list.
>     
>     Cheers
>         Toerless
>     
>     
>     > Regards,
>     > Jordi
>     > 
>     > -----Mensaje original-----
>     > De: ietf <[e-mail]>; en nombre de JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[e-mail]>;
>     > Responder a: < [e-mail]>;
>     > Fecha: viernes, 14 de abril de 2017, 01:24
>     > Para: <[e-mail]>;
>     > Asunto: Re: Update on feedback on US-based meetings, and IETF 102
>     > 
>     > Well, for some countries what Trump said, has already been a fact, for example the prohibition to have computers on board. Is not that the case?
>     > 
>     > Whatever we want to decide, cancel SF or not, it may highly depend on budget, we like it or not. And that means that we need answers:
>     > 
>     >     If we cancel San Francisco, how much that is going to cost to the IETF for each of two planned meetings?
>     >     
>     >     Can we cancel the actual hotel contract considering the new US situation? If not, has this been considered for new contracts to avoid this problem?
>     >     
>     >     Otherwise there is any reason that can justify the lack of transparency in this?
>     > 
>     > The problem is so big for this community that I don???t even agree that the IAOC should take the decision. It must be a collective one, especially when the IAOC is demonstrating thru facts that they don???t care that we are discussing and wasting our time without the minimum relevant data, this is disrespectful and even more, not responding to emails since even since years ago, shows lack of education 
>     > 
>     > Regards,
>     > Jordi
>     > 
>     > 
>     > 
>     > 
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