Re: Is round-trip time no longer a concern?
"Steven M. Bellovin" <smb@cs.columbia.edu> Mon, 20 February 2006 17:33 UTC
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From: "Steven M. Bellovin" <smb@cs.columbia.edu>
To: dcrocker@bbiw.net
In-Reply-To: (Your message of "Mon, 20 Feb 2006 08:29:06 PST.") <43F9EE52.7020007@dcrocker.net>
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Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:33:05 -0500
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Cc: IETF-Discussion <ietf@ietf.org>, iesg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Is round-trip time no longer a concern?
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In message <43F9EE52.7020007@dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker writes: >I'll add one specific comment, reacting to Steve Bellovin's noting LAN vs. WAN >"operational environment" distinction. It has been my experience and my >understanding that the IETF does not design upper-level (transport and above) >protocols to be sensitive to that LAN vs. WAN distinction. > >As I understand it, when TCP/IP was first put over Ethernet, this >was a point of very significant debate. There was a strong lobby >for optimizing things for the faster, lower-latency Ethernet >environment. > >My own assessment of the decision to avoid the temptation to have >protocols be "tuned" in that way is that it was a spectacularly >good decision. First, it makes the protocol world vastly simpler. >Second, it makes the operational world vastly simpler. > >Folks can study the OSI TP0, TP1, TP2, TP3, TP4 alternative approach, >by way of seeing the way things could have been. None of those >transports interoperated with each other. Dave, I tried to phrase my comment carefully. I wrote: For protocols whose *usual* -- not exclusive -- operational environment because I'm very well aware that there is no hard and fast boundary. Indeed, I occasionally refer to what I call "Bellovin's Laws of Networking": 1. Networks interconnect 2. Networks *always* interconnect, even if you don't think they will 3. Networks interconnect at the edges, not the center That said, there are protocols whose usual patterns are in one camp or the other, sometimes for fundamental reasons. X11 and NFS will always be better-used locally, because the people and applications are expecting low-latency responses. HTTP is generally a WAN protocol, because statistically most of the Web isn't at your site. It's acceptable, to me, to make an *engineering tradeoff* about how a protocol design is balanced, if there's a natural operational environment. What's not acceptable is to design it so that it *only* runs in one environment or the other. It's also worth noting that the counterexamples you cite are transport protocols. When something tends to live underneath many disparate protocols, you're less free to make such choices, because you don't know what the upper layers will be. This obviously applies to TCP; less obviously, it applies to TLS and (unfortunately) HTTP. _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- Re: Last Call: 'TLS User Mapping Extension' to Pr… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Last Call: 'TLS User Mapping Extension' to Pr… Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: Last Call: 'TLS User Mapping Extension' to Pr… Bill Fenner
- Re: Last Call: 'TLS User Mapping Extension' to Pr… Russ Housley
- Re: Last Call: 'TLS User Mapping Extension' to Pr… Russ Housley
- Is round-trip time no longer a concern? (was: Re:… Dave Crocker
- Re: Is round-trip time no longer a concern? Russ Allbery
- Re: Is round-trip time no longer a concern? (was:… Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: Last Call: 'TLS User Mapping Extension' to Pr… Bill Strahm
- Re: Is round-trip time no longer a concern? (was:… Dave Cridland
- Re: Is round-trip time no longer a concern? Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Is round-trip time no longer a concern? Peter Dambier
- RE: Last Call: 'TLS User Mapping Extension' to Pr… Pasi.Eronen
- Re: Is round-trip time no longer a concern? Eric Rescorla
- Re: Is round-trip time no longer a concern? Keith Moore
- Re: Is round-trip time no longer a concern? Dave Cridland
- Re: Is round-trip time no longer a concern? Dave Crocker
- Re: Is round-trip time no longer a concern? Eric Rescorla
- Re: Is round-trip time no longer a concern? Tony Finch
- Re: Is round-trip time no longer a concern? Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: Is round-trip time no longer a concern? Dave Crocker
- RE: Last Call: 'TLS User Mapping Extension' to Pr… Gray, Eric
- RE: [TLS] Re: Last Call: 'TLS User Mapping Extens… Pasi.Eronen
- Re: Last Call: 'TLS User Mapping Extension' to Pr… Bernard Aboba
- RE: Last Call: 'TLS User Mapping Extension' to Pr… Russ Housley
- RE: [TLS] Re: Last Call: 'TLS User Mapping Extens… Russ Housley
- RE: [TLS] Re: Last Call: 'TLS User Mapping Extens… Stefan Santesson
- RE: Last Call: 'TLS User Mapping Extension' to Pr… Stefan Santesson
- RE: Last Call: 'TLS User Mapping Extension' to Pr… Stefan Santesson
- RE: Re: [TLS] Re: Last Call: 'TLS User Mapping Ex… Stefan Santesson
- RE: Re: [TLS] Re: Last Call: 'TLS User Mapping Ex… Stefan Santesson
- RE: Re: [TLS] Re: Last Call: 'TLS User Mapping Ex… Russ Housley
- Re: Last Call: 'TLS User Mapping Extension' to Pr… Simon Josefsson
- Re: Last Call: 'TLS User Mapping Extension' to Pr… Jeffrey Hutzelman
- RE: [TLS] Re: Last Call: 'TLS User Mapping Extens… Ari Medvinsky