Re: "why I quit writing internet standards"
Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> Mon, 14 April 2014 17:07 UTC
Return-Path: <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70A531A0572 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:07:33 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: 1.018
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.018 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, MISSING_HEADERS=1.021, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tviUcvD6Jbh7 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:07:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from server1.neighborhoods.net (server1.neighborhoods.net [207.154.13.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 946C61A04C1 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:07:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by server1.neighborhoods.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAF6BCC0B5 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 13:07:26 -0400 (EDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-2.6.2 (20081215) (Debian) at neighborhoods.net
Received: from server1.neighborhoods.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (server1.neighborhoods.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id m1bprZLOffVD for <ietf@ietf.org>; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 13:07:18 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from new-host.home (pool-173-76-155-14.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [173.76.155.14]) by server1.neighborhoods.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0890CCC0A7 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 13:07:18 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <534C15C5.6040300@meetinghouse.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 13:07:17 -0400
From: Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:28.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/28.0 SeaMonkey/2.25
MIME-Version: 1.0
CC: "ietf@ietf.org list" <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: "why I quit writing internet standards"
References: <CF71721A.180A9%wesley.george@twcable.com> <19983.1397493280@sandelman.ca> <8B56205B-8143-4B5B-B2FD-22FABE95ED16@unina.it>
In-Reply-To: <8B56205B-8143-4B5B-B2FD-22FABE95ED16@unina.it>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/T9hldMI0aXCoY6hMzF-dPewBUYc
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 17:07:33 -0000
It probably also helped, back in the day, that so many people working on protocols were doing so under funded grants. Miles Simon Pietro Romano wrote: > Hi, > > I read the post from Vidya and I have to say I totally agree with her. > As to running code, in particular, my impression is that if you are > used to implement prototypes of ongoing standards and you're neither a > big company nor a member of the IETF elite of gurus, the best you can > buck for is an informational "call flows" RFC. Standards Track stuff > is left to those who (seem to) do the high-level specification work. > This happens because people seem to rush for editing documents as soon > as a new WG is chartered, but then they progressively reduce efforts > when such a WG starts to lose momentum and is not latest fashion any > longer. > Finally, coming to interoperability, it is hard to work on it if your > implementation is the only one available. In the long run, I do > acknowledge the fact that you get tired of doing all that hard work > and investing so many cycles in a highly underestimated engineering > activity. > > My two cents, > > Simon > > > On 14/apr/2014, at 18:34, Michael Richardson wrote: > >> >> George, Wes <wesley.george@twcable.com >> <mailto:wesley.george@twcable.com>> wrote: >>> - We don’t have nearly enough focus on running code as the thing >>> that helps to >>> ensure that we’re using our limited cycles on getting the right >>> things out >>> expediently, and either getting the design right the first time, or >>> failing >>> quickly and iterating to improve >> >>> The solution here may be that we need to be much more aggressive at >>> expecting >>> any standards track documents to have running code much earlier in the >>> process. >> >> For instance, had DMARC proponents and/or Yahoo, spent some time >> making sure >> that there was some running code for mailing list use, life would be >> better. >> >> I'm not entirely clear how it was that we produced/funded (more) >> running code in the >> 1990s. Maybe this is a false idea; it could be that there was less >> code then >> than there is now. I will posit several factors: >> 1) there was less working occuring, and perhaps over a longer time >> period >> (where time is subject to perception as well as reality), such that >> code became mature sooner in the specification process, and/or there >> were simply more volunteers willing to produce it. >> >> 2) many companies were much smaller, and it was easier to get line >> managers >> to see why they wanted to be directly involved, even lead, efforts. >> >> 3) it wasn't so much the dotcom boom which made money available via VCs, >> but rather that the (ultimately unstainable) revenue doubling, >> quarter >> over quarter which made resources available for prototypes. >> >> 4) there were some clear institutions (MIT, CMU, Berkeley, LLBL, UW) >> where >> some good reference implementations were developed by students, >> faculty, >> staff. And don't forget WIDE and USAGI!!! >> >> When I founded Xelerance, it was with the idea that multiple large >> organizations were shipping IPsec code on Linux, and would rather pay a >> company a maintenance fee than attempt to manage the process internally. >> We got some work funded, but we never got enough funding to get ahead of >> the standardization process and write code will an ID was still young. >> Overall, that effort failed. >> >> -- >> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca >> <mailto:mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>>, Sandelman Software Works >> -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- >> >> >> > > _\\|//_ > ( O-O ) > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Simon Pietro Romano > Universita' di Napoli Federico II > Computer Engineering Department > Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7683816 > e-mail: spromano@unina.it <mailto:spromano@unina.it> > > <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento è l'alibi degli > idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. Magritte. > oooO > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~( )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > \ ( ( ) > \_) ) / > (_/ > > > > > > -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
- "why I quit writing internet standards" George, Wes
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" David Meyer
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Miles Fidelman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Alia Atlas
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Christian de Larrinaga
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Andy Bierman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Ted Lemon
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Michael Richardson
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Tim Wicinski
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Andy Bierman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Miles Fidelman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" David Meyer
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Miles Fidelman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Dale R. Worley
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Scott Kitterman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Miles Fidelman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Jari Arkko
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Spencer Dawkins
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Carsten Bormann
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Spencer Dawkins
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Thomas Clausen
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Wesley Eddy
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Yoav Nir
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Thomas Clausen
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Wesley Eddy
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Miles Fidelman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Spencer Dawkins
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Thomas Clausen
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Melinda Shore
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Carsten Bormann
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Thomas Clausen
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Spencer Dawkins
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Brian E Carpenter
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Dave Cridland
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Thomas Nadeau
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Thomas Nadeau
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Benoit Claise
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Benoit Claise
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Benoit Claise
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Thomas Nadeau
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Miles Fidelman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Yoav Nir
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" S Moonesamy
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Benoit Claise
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Douglas Otis
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Andy Bierman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Hector Santos
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Dave Crocker
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Scott Kitterman
- Re: DMARC not-WG, was "why I quit writing interne… John Levine
- Re: DMARC not-WG, was "why I quit writing interne… Dave Crocker
- Re: DMARC not-WG, was "why I quit writing interne… Hector Santos
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Dave Crocker
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Scott Kitterman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Dave Crocker
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Scott Kitterman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Douglas Otis