Re: A contribution to ongoing terminology work

Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> Mon, 05 April 2021 21:32 UTC

Return-Path: <nico@cryptonector.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70ABA3A28C9 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 14:32:13 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.118
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.118 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SXlAPSNsOPj9 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 14:32:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from black.elm.relay.mailchannels.net (black.elm.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.212.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 412003A28D1 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 14:32:04 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com
Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC6151E2923; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 21:32:02 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-27-144.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.27.144]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id B4B851E2781; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 21:32:00 +0000 (UTC)
X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com
Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 100.96.27.144 (trex/6.1.1); Mon, 05 Apr 2021 21:32:02 +0000
X-MC-Relay: Neutral
X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com
X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost
X-Wide-Eyed-Lonely: 2b81a47e0e0f468e_1617658322806_895528699
X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1617658322806:2128783176
X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1617658322805
Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77F7287B2E; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 21:32:00 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=jXQU4yeaVAzNze 3XsPwhFGk+Od8=; b=QLfoH2OPmTYqJ1xz48B3QOupZeMvoMF4VubxjAJNiuObo3 baKoSZUcDYpFl2GNDKGq+8F+GZ3IwjWJPg2xu3s80rkEx+UNn730NtCFOpcLn6aF lckfidi6gdhlB4A56ZyrDQIUmvM902WxevPsSHCzII3RsIrapMHaZTHkFG3B0=
Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DE33E879D2; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 21:31:58 +0000 (UTC)
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2021 16:31:55 -0500
X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a70
From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
To: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
Cc: "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: A contribution to ongoing terminology work
Message-ID: <20210405213154.GN3828@localhost>
References: <c613095d-f0b4-8df7-e703-d1b3c52bffc5@gmail.com> <tslpmzctgoi.fsf@suchdamage.org> <20210404201640.GD3828@localhost> <b73044b4-c1b1-3a25-f37f-e5b9c90af778@foobar.org> <EBB35046-F12A-4F63-A784-F5AE493CB690@dukhovni.org> <9fa9b81f-22ae-ef8d-284e-4776ca6efaa4@joelhalpern.com> <8D9F09AF-086E-4975-889A-73B42D939F1E@dukhovni.org> <934CF504-F520-45F4-BEF5-F3D03776F0F5@akamai.com> <20210405205835.GL3828@localhost> <3A48EA1B-9DE0-4101-A841-64EB5A11C18B@akamai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <3A48EA1B-9DE0-4101-A841-64EB5A11C18B@akamai.com>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/TxUWO-o9yjlJkM4g5oKstOMgf_0>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2021 21:32:13 -0000

On Mon, Apr 05, 2021 at 09:22:47PM +0000, Salz, Rich wrote:
> >    You might say new terminology is more inclusive, or that old terminology
> >    is exclusive, or just say this is the new style or something.  But
> >    whatever you do, calling the community racist is not ok, just bullying
> >    by intimidation.
> 
> I certainly have never done that.

I didn't say you did.

> Do you have references where the IETF was said to be racist, as
> opposed to using racist language?

draft-knodel-terminology-04

> >    It's not very far from "it will be hard, for a while, for me to work
> >    with some people" to "let's toss them out (this cudgel is handy!)".  If
> >    anything, your reply strengthen's Viktor's argument with an existence
> >    proof of the danger in question.  If you wish to dismiss that argument,
> >    you could do worse than to stop the intimidation tactics and start
> >    calling them out when you see them.  (Apologies for specific, egregious
> >    incidents would be nice too.)
> 
> Please let me know what you think I need to apologize for; feel free
> to do it off-list.  Links will help.

I just did.  While I would discuss it on-list, I think it's more likely
that can obtain results if we continue off-list.

Nico
--