Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin of a bunch of SMALL community lists
ned+ietf@mauve.mrochek.com Sun, 13 April 2014 15:01 UTC
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From: ned+ietf@mauve.mrochek.com
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Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 16:35:13 -0700
Subject: Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin of a bunch of SMALL community lists
In-reply-to: "Your message dated Sun, 13 Apr 2014 10:23:22 +1200" <5349BCDA.7080701@gmail.com>
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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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> In the DMARC draft, I noticed this: > > Descriptions of the PolicyOverrideTypes: > ... > > mailing_list: Local heuristics determined that the message arrived > > via a mailing list, and thus authentication of the original > > message was not expected to succeed. > Could somebody explain what that means and whether it can be used to > mitigate the current issue? "mailing_list" is an indicator that a Receiver has chosen to override the policy the Domain Owner specified for a failed DMARC check, on the basis that the Receiver has knowledge that the message was forwarded by a mailing list and thus the DMARC failure is expected. A whitelisting mechansism, in other words. This is viable mitigation in theory, but not in practice, because it assumes that Receviers are aware of and can verify mail they receive from every possible legitimate mailing list out there. That's clearly not possible. > Or are substantial changes needed > in the fundamentals of DMARC? The underlying technical issue is that the two technologies DMARC is built on - DKIM and SPF - both attach additional/restrictive semantics to longstanding mail system fields. (Broadly speaking, From: for DKIM and MAIL FROM for SPF.) An unavoidable consequence of doing this is that longstanding email mechanisms that depend on the semantics of those fields are going to be affected. (Mailing lists are the obvious example for DKIM, autoforwarers the obvious one for SPF.) And when you couple this with an unforgiving policy choice, things break badly. If you're expecting any of this to be fixable by some technical change to DMARC, DKIM, or SPF, you can forget it. The design constraints in the space are very tight, and if you "fix" them to address the issues they cause, you ruin their effectiveness. > I assume the authors will be adding a discussion of this issue to the draft. You're really looking at the wrong draft. draft-crocker-dmarc-bcp-03 talks about when p=reject should be used, and has this to say: DMARC provides protection against some forms of email domain name abuse. Its restricted policy form (p=quarantine or p=reject) is not intended for all use cases, and is beneficial only in the presence of an actual spoofing problem. You may, however, want to protect mailboxes by checking inbound mail, and you may want information about how your domains are showing up at recipients by publishing a p=none record. It goes on to discuss the use of p=reject with domains that only send transactional. AFAICT there is no discussion of when *not* to use p=reject, and why. Nor, for that matter is there substantive discussion of mailing_list, and why it's not a general solution to the problems caused by p=reject. More generally, I have to say I find myself in substantive agrement with Miles Fidelman and Hector Santos on this matter. There has been a cascade failure leading to a colossal screwup. And while Yahoo is clearly the primary malfeasor here, as is always the case in a cascade failure, there's blame aplenty to go around. Like it or not, the IETF published a draft that defines certain mechanisms which, if used improperly by a large provider, cause serious problems for a large number of people. The text describing the consequences of the use of those mechansisms in the drafts is, IMO, entirely inadequate. And it's not like we didn't know. As others have pointed out, this issue existed in the earlier ADSP proposal. It was given insufficient attention there as well. The clear discrepancy between the fine print regarding intended status in the specifications (which only engineers read) and what's on the DMARC web site (which is what managers read) is also nothing short of deplorable. Of course the IETF can fall back on the usual excuses, including, but not limited to: Yahoo, of all ISPs, should have known better We don't tell people what to do It was just a draft It was never intended to be a standard We're not the Internet Protocol Police etc. I'm sorry, but this time none of these dogs are hunting for me. An attractive nuisance is an attractive nuisance, and this is what the IETF has, albeit with the best of intentions, managed to create. The real question we should be discussing is what options the IETF has to try and address this. Ned
- DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin of a … Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dave Crocker
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Michael Richardson
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Hector Santos
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Mark Andrews
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Hector Santos
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Douglas Otis
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dave Crocker
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Andrew G. Malis
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… John Levine
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dick Franks
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dick Franks
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re[2]: DMARC and yahoo mohammed serrhini
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Hector Santos
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dick Franks
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dave Crocker
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Doug Royer
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Warren Kumari
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Murray S. Kucherawy
- RE: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Theodore Ts'o
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dick Franks
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Rolf E. Sonneveld
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dave Crocker
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dave Cridland
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dick Franks
- What I've been wondering about the DMARC problem Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Doug Barton
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Doug Royer
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Miles Fidelman
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Ted Lemon
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Scott Kitterman
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Theodore Ts'o
- What I've been wondering about the DMARC problem Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Sabahattin Gucukoglu
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Seth Johnson
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Seth Johnson
- RE: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… l.wood
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Douglas Otis
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Seth Johnson
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Dave Crocker
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Hector Santos
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Miles Fidelman
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Seth Johnson
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Miles Fidelman
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Paul Ferguson
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Miles Fidelman
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Hector Santos
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Miles Fidelman
- RE: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Hector Santos
- RE: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Doug Royer
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Theodore Ts'o
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Michael Richardson
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Theodore Ts'o
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Sabahattin Gucukoglu
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Stephen Farrell
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Hector Santos
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Randy Bush
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Yoav Nir
- RE: DMARC and yahoo MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Theodore Ts'o
- RE: DMARC and yahoo MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Jim Fenton
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Miles Fidelman
- RE: DMARC and yahoo l.wood
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Douglas Otis
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… John C Klensin
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Sabahattin Gucukoglu
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… ned+ietf
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Hector Santos
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… John Levine
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Martin Rex
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Doug Barton
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… John Levine
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Sabahattin Gucukoglu
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Sabahattin Gucukoglu
- RE: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- RE: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Doug Barton
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Randy Bush
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… John C Klensin
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Hector Santos
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… John C Klensin
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Pete Resnick
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Jeffrey Altman
- Re: DMARC and yahoo John Levine
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Hector Santos
- Re: DMARC and yahoo John C Klensin
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Brian E Carpenter
- One size doesn't fit all [Re: DMARC ....] Brian E Carpenter
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dave Crocker
- Somebody always claims something (was Re: DMARC f… Dave Crocker
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Doug Barton
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Hector Santos
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Theodore Ts'o
- RE: DMARC and yahoo Christian Huitema
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Yoav Nir
- Re: DMARC and yahoo John Levine
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Dave Crocker
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Doug Royer
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Dave Crocker
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Douglas Otis
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… John Levine
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Rolf E. Sonneveld
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Douglas Otis
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Doug Barton
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Martin Rex
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Doug Barton
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Martin Rex
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Scott Kitterman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Douglas Otis
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Scott Kitterman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Martin Rex
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… John R Levine
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Ted Lemon
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dave Crocker
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Martin Rex
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Douglas Otis
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Hector Santos
- The IETF environment (was: Re: DMARC from the per… ned+ietf
- Re: The IETF environment Dave Crocker
- RE: The IETF environment Adrian Farrel
- Re: The IETF environment Miles Fidelman
- Re: The IETF environment Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: The IETF environment Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: The IETF environment Dale R. Worley
- Re: The IETF environment Brian E Carpenter
- Re: The IETF environment Dave Crocker
- Re: The IETF environment Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Hector Santos
- Re: The IETF environment S Moonesamy
- Re: The IETF environment Dave Crocker
- Re: The IETF environment Miles Fidelman
- RE: The IETF environment Christian Huitema
- Re: The IETF environment S Moonesamy
- Re: The IETF environment Miles Fidelman
- Workshop effects [Re: The IETF environment] Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Workshop effects [Re: The IETF environment] Abdussalam Baryun