Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation)
Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> Sat, 26 December 2015 15:51 UTC
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Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 10:51:49 -0500
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Subject: Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation)
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Cc: Dave Crocker <dcrocker@bbiw.net>, IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>
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On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 12:47 AM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote: > I note in your earlier description you commented that these reviews (whose > value you doubt) take up AD time when they should be serving as managers. I > note that many areas now routinely turn the primary review over to a > directorate. The ADs decide how much careful combing they do after the > directorate. That seems to enable the kind of delegating that can help, > without mandating it, and without having rules that micro-manage how ADs do > their job. Well yes and no. If I am doing an early review of a doc it might be a substitute for AD involvement. but if the doc is in IESG last call and the Security Considerations is a back reference to one in a ten year old RFC that doesn't actually say anything substantive, SECDIR review is only going to be a failstop for helping make sure the document gets attention. What frustrates me in the reviews is that since we lack a current description of the Internet architecture, we lack useful guidelines as to what interactions need to be addressed and which do not. Where a technology lives in the stack should be a guide to what other areas it might affect and which security criteria are relevant. For example, if we have an application specification that depends on a particular link layer configuration, we have a layering violation. The cure for that is not 'cross area review', it is for someone to go learn the principles of modular architecture. The security requirements that can be met change depending on the layer you are working at as well. You are not going to be able to address 'traffic' analysis at the application layer where the architectural model does not have a concept of network topology. You are not going to be able to address meta-data analysis at the packet layer where there is no notion of content. It is also worth pointing out that directorates have been abused on occasion. A directorate should never be a cabal that second guesses the work of working groups behind closed doors. A lesson that it has taken us longer to understand in security than it should have perhaps is that implementers have a choice and if we demand too much, they leave our stuff out completely.
- Hotel situation Melinda Shore
- RE: Hotel situation Ted Lemon
- Re: Hotel situation Jared Mauch
- Re: Hotel situation Melinda Shore
- Re: Hotel situation Tim Wicinski
- RE: Hotel situation Ted Lemon
- Re: Hotel situation Melinda Shore
- Re: Hotel situation Dave Crocker
- Re: Hotel situation Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Hotel situation Eggert, Lars
- Re: Hotel situation Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Hotel situation Nadeau Thomas
- Re: Hotel situation Paul Wouters
- Re: Hotel situation John Levine
- Re: Hotel situation John Levine
- Re: Hotel situation Paul Wouters
- Re: Hotel situation Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)
- Re: Hotel situation Lou Berger
- Re: Hotel situation Melinda Shore
- Re: Hotel situation Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Hotel situation Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Hotel situation Melinda Shore
- Re: Hotel situation John R Levine
- Re: Hotel situation Toerless Eckert
- Re: Hotel situation Sarah Banks
- Re: Hotel situation Donald Eastlake
- Re: Hotel situation Livingood, Jason
- Re: Hotel situation John Levine
- Re: Hotel situation Livingood, Jason
- Re: Hotel situation Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Hotel situation Sarah Banks
- Re: Hotel situation Tim Chown
- Re: Hotel situation Ray Pelletier
- Re: Hotel situation Brian Rosen
- Re: Hotel situation Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)
- Re: Hotel situation Christian Hopps
- Re: Hotel situation John Levine
- Re: Hotel situation John Levine
- Re: Hotel situation Fernando Gont
- Re: Hotel situation Fernando Gont
- Re: Hotel situation Tim Chown
- Re: Hotel situation Jari Arkko
- Re: Hotel situation Toerless Eckert
- Re: Hotel situation Jari Arkko
- Re: Hotel situation Jared Mauch
- Re: Hotel situation Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Hotel situation Warren Kumari
- Re: Hotel situation Eggert, Lars
- Re: Hotel situation Leif Johansson
- Re: Hotel situation Tim Chown
- Re: Hotel situation Brian Rosen
- Re: Hotel situation Toerless Eckert
- Re: Hotel situation Stewart Bryant
- Re: Hotel situation Warren Kumari
- Re: Hotel situation Melinda Shore
- Re: Hotel situation Warren Kumari
- Re: Hotel situation Michal Krsek
- Re: Hotel situation Warren Kumari
- Re: Hotel situation Dave Crocker
- Venue Selection Objectives and Criteria was Re: H… Ray Pelletier
- Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) Carsten Bormann
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) Michal Krsek
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) Andrew G. Malis
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) Andrew Sullivan
- Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) Wassim Haddad
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) Richard Shockey
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) tom p.
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) Jari Arkko
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) John Levine
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) Stephen Farrell
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Jari Arkko
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) John C Klensin
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Dave Crocker
- RE: Hotel situation Randall Gellens
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Ralph Droms
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Dave Crocker
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) John C Klensin
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Dave Crocker
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) John C Klensin
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Jari Arkko
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Jari Arkko
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Eric Burger
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) tom p.
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Dave Crocker
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Hotel situation Pat (Patricia) Thaler
- RE: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Ted Lemon
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Eric Burger
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Dave Crocker
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Joel M. Halpern
- InterContinental BA experience so far (was: Re: H… Marco Davids
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Keith Moore
- Re: InterContinental BA experience so far (was: R… John Levine
- Re: InterContinental BA experience so far (was: R… Melinda Shore
- Re: InterContinental BA experience so far (was: R… John Levine
- Re: InterContinental BA experience so far (was: R… Fernando Gont
- RE: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Ted Lemon
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Ted Lemon
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Keith Moore
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Dave Crocker
- Payouts for missed blocks (was Re: Hotel situatio… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Payouts for missed blocks (was Re: Hotel situ… John C Klensin
- Re: Payouts for missed blocks (was Re: Hotel situ… Theodore Ts'o
- Independent Stream (was Re: Cross-area review (wa… Dave Crocker
- RE: Hotel situation Eric Gray
- Re: Hotel situation Mary Barnes
- Re: Hotel situation John Levine
- Re: Hotel situation Jari Arkko
- Re: Hotel situation John C Klensin
- Re: Hotel situation Stewart Bryant
- Re: Hotel situation Jari Arkko
- Re: Hotel situation l.wood
- Re: Hotel situation Christian Hopps
- Re: Hotel situation John C Klensin
- Re: Hotel situation Dave Crocker
- Re: Hotel situation Tim Chown
- Re: Hotel situation John C Klensin
- Re: Venue Selection Objectives and Criteria was R… George, Wes
- Re: Hotel situation John C Klensin
- Re: Hotel situation Nadeau Thomas
- Re: Hotel situation Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Hotel situation Jared Mauch
- Venue Data for Upcoming Meetings was Re: Hotel si… Ray Pelletier
- Re: Hotel situation tom p.
- Re: Hotel situation Bob Hinden
- Re: Hotel situation Randy Bush
- Re: Hotel situation Paul Wouters
- Re: Hotel situation Richard Shockey
- Re: Hotel situation Randy Bush
- Re: Hotel situation Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Hotel situation lloyd.wood
- Re: locations, was Hotel situation John Levine
- Re: locations, was Hotel situation lloyd.wood
- Re: Hotel situation Randall Gellens
- "resource-rich urban environments" (was "Re: Hote… Randall Gellens
- Re: Hotel situation Randall Gellens
- Re: Hotel situation Randall Gellens
- Re: Hotel situation Randall Gellens
- Re: not really the current Hotel situation John Levine
- Re: Hotel situation Lloyd Wood
- Re: Hotel situation Randall Gellens
- Re: Hotel situation Toerless Eckert
- Re: Hotel situation John C Klensin
- Re: Hotel situation Ole Jacobsen
- Re: ever more hypothetical Hotel situation John Levine
- RE: ever more hypothetical Hotel situation Christer Holmberg
- Re: ever more hypothetical Hotel situation Theodore V Faber
- Re: Venue Data for Upcoming Meetings was Re: Hote… Ray Pelletier