Re: "The IETF has difficulty solving complex problems" or alternatively Why IMS is a big fat ugly incomprehensiable protocol
Pekka Nikander <pekka.nikander@nomadiclab.com> Sun, 18 September 2005 06:58 UTC
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From: Pekka Nikander <pekka.nikander@nomadiclab.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 08:58:18 +0200
To: Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch@muada.com>
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Cc: IETF Discussion <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: "The IETF has difficulty solving complex problems" or alternatively Why IMS is a big fat ugly incomprehensiable protocol
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IMHO, this thread of this discussion belongs to the HIP WG list. I am replying there. --Pekka Nikander On Sep 17, 2005, at 15:48, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > On 15-sep-2005, at 9:57, Pekka Nikander wrote: > > >>>> So, as I state in my little web page, I think we really should >>>> work hard to create a new waist for the architecture. I, of >>>> course, have my own theory where the new waist should be and how >>>> it should be implemented, >>>> > > >>> Well, don't be shy: where can we absorb these insights? >>> > > >> Unfortunately I don't have any concise summary of my "theory", but >> wading through my academic papers (available through my home page) >> should give a fairly good view. >> > > [HIP] > > >> But, as I wrote, I am trying to take distance from these and >> trying to understand alternative approaches, like "virtualising >> IP" or "domain-based internetworking" that some people are >> thinking about. It is now mostly other people that are continuing >> the HIP-based work, for example, at the CEC funded Ambient >> Networks project and at the IRTF HIP Research Group. >> > > I think HIP is on the right track in some areas, but I don't like > the protocol as such because the overhead is too large, and I think > even though it's fairly radical in some ways, it doesn't go far > enough. > > For instance, the first sentence of any new internet architecture > would have to be: one size does NOT fit all. The assumption that it > does has allowed a lot of great work in the past. For instance, for > some time, TCP was able to accommodate the slowest possible links > and the fastest. But that's no longer true, so now we have to > choose between enabling RFC 1323 high performance options to allow > high speed downloads across the globe, or disable them and allow > for header compression to optimize for low speed links. > Unfortunately most operating systems enable the options, killing > header compression, while applications fail to use buffers that are > big enough so long distance high speed downloads aren't possible > either. > > That kind of stuff is very common in today's internet. > > We also need to address the need of intermediate systems to > influence the communication between two endpoints in various ways, > without killing the end-to-end principle wholesale. > > Routing, naming, addressing and layering is a big mess in the > current "architecture". (I'm using quotes because all of this > evolved over time without noticeable architectural oversight.) CIDR > was a step in the right direction, but now it's time for the next > step: make addresses variable length. (One size doesn't fit all.) > Port numbers should be part of the address to allow for easier > filtering. Having DNS names is great, but applications shouldn't > have to deal with name to address mappings: we need a new API that > hides addresses from applications that don't have any need to look > at them. HIP does get the locator/identifier idea right. In > addition to that, we need to abandon the notion of one single > network with a fixed root. By allowing each point in the network to > be the root, and map all other parts of the network to arbitrary > parts of the hierarchy as seen from a given root, we can impose the > constraints required by many organizations. Interdomain routing > needs more link state like mechanisms in order to get rid of BGP's > version of the count to infinity problem. It also needs to work > when the view of the network is incomplete, while at the same time > taking advantage of additional topological information when > available. (This includes taking advantage of geography in > routing.) And interdomain routing shouldn't be subvertable like it > is today. > > Coming back to IPsec: we need more of this. TLS is broken because > it doesn't protect the underlying TCP session. We need an API that > allows applications to do an IPsec version of "STARTTLS". (It would > be nice if we could do authentication first and then encryption, > unlike it's done today, to get rid of at least SOME of the huge > IPsec overhead: the auth data can then be the encryption IV.) > > In other words: we now need to do everything that we didn't do > until now because it was too hard. > > Ok, that's my rant for today. :-) > > _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- "The IETF has difficulty solving complex problems" Scott W Brim
- Re: "The IETF has difficulty solving complex prob… JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- RE: "The IETF has difficulty solving complex prob… Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: "The IETF has difficulty solving complex prob… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: "The IETF has difficulty solving complex prob… JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: "The IETF has difficulty solving complex prob… Pekka Nikander
- Re: "The IETF has difficulty solving complex prob… Richard Shockey
- Re: "The IETF has difficulty solving complex prob… Spencer Dawkins
- Re: "The IETF has difficulty solving complex prob… Richard Shockey
- Re: "The IETF has difficulty solving complex prob… Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: "The IETF has difficulty solving complex prob… Jari Arkko
- Re: "The IETF has difficulty solving complex prob… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: "The IETF has difficulty solving complex prob… Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: "The IETF has difficulty solving complex prob… Masataka Ohta
- Re: "The IETF has difficulty solving complex prob… Pekka Nikander
- Re: "The IETF has difficulty solving complex prob… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: "The IETF has difficulty solving complex prob… Pekka Nikander
- Re: "The IETF has difficulty solving complex prob… JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: "The IETF has difficulty solving complex prob… Pekka Nikander
- HIP new possibilities JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: "The IETF has difficulty solving complex prob… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: "The IETF has difficulty solving complex prob… Pekka Nikander