Re: Concerns about Singapore
Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> Mon, 11 April 2016 13:02 UTC
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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 09:01:53 -0400
Message-ID: <CAPt1N1kej35TSzDGH1QzNgJ9LvK2DMH-PFxDVUgvv_n_LPkvVw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Concerns about Singapore
To: Yoav Nir <ynir.ietf@gmail.com>
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Cc: Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org>, ietf <ietf@ietf.org>
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Also, if you live in a country with censorship, or with low bandwidth, it's possible that the only way to attend an IETF meeting will be in person. It would be nice if there were a bright line to draw on one side of which is total inclusiveness, but there is not. We need to make both kinds of meeting work. What Stephen said is right--the IAOC needs to systematically, rather than informally, analyze what it is that needs to be done in confidence, and expose the rest to public view. I know this is non-trivial, and I do not say this in the spirit of bashing the IAOC, who work very hard for us with little reward other than our complaining. If I were on the IAOC right now, I would be thinking about how to get off of it. I've been in the situation of having what seemed like a big chunk of the IETF upset at me, and it's pretty soul-crushing. Nevertheless, I think what Stephen proposes is the thing the IAOC can do that is most likely to prevent future woe of this kind. On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 8:17 AM, Yoav Nir <ynir.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On 11 Apr 2016, at 1:45 PM, Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> wrote: > > > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 08:05:19AM +0000, Andrew Allen wrote: > >> We could be left with the only possible venue being a cruise ship > >> sailing in international waters - [snip] > > > > There is another alternative -- one I've raised repeatedly. > > > > Don't have physical meetings. Then this entire problem space simply > > vanishes, along with the need for a discusion thread that's now over a > > hundred messages. (And it's not the first one.) YES, it's replaced by a > > different problem space, which roughly works out to "how can everything > > be done virtually?" but given that this is the *Internet* engineering > > task force I have no doubt that the collective expertise is more than > > capable of dealing with that. > > I don’t believe that this technology exists. People have been singing the > praise of Meetecho in IETF 95, and yet remote participation is nothing like > being in the room. And the “virtual interim” meetings are nothing like > physical meetings. There is a reason why airlines make great money from > business travel and don’t shut down for the winter. > > > Particularly if all the discussion, effort, > > and expense going into the logistics of physical meetings is redirected > > into virtual ones instead. > > Yeah, perhaps, some day when we’re all wearing virtual reality headsets > and our avatars are hanging out in a virtual venue, and we all have > sufficient equipment and bandwidth to handle all that. We’re not there yet. > > > I really can't take any of the platitudes about "inclusion" seriously > > until that happens -- because as long as the IETF persists with physical > > meetings, most people *will* be excluded due to cost, distance, time, > > legal climate, personal safety, etc. The IETF is, even if accidentally, > > selecting for the elite few who are fortunate enough to be attend. > > Virtual meetings with the technology we have today makes it very hard for > people with mediocre English to follow the discussion. The “I don’t quite > follow what you’re saying” look does not translate well to the kind of > video we can use today. That extends even to people with relatively good > English (for non-native speakers) like me. > > Yoav >
- Concerns about Singapore Jari Arkko
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Adam Roach
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dhruv Dhody
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Jeffrey Haas
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dhruv Dhody
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Donald Eastlake
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: Concerns about Singapore David Conrad
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Laurent Ciavaglia
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Laurent Ciavaglia
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Jared Mauch
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Bert Wijnen (IETF)
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- A distinction along Pete's dimensions (was: Re: C… John C Klensin
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: A distinction along Pete's dimensions Dave Crocker
- Re: A distinction along Pete's dimensions Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Christian Hopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: Concerns about Singapore nalini.elkins
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: A distinction along Pete's dimensions Jari Arkko
- China Ole Jacobsen
- SV: Concerns about Singapore Anne-Marie Eklund-Löwinder
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dirk-Willem van Gulik
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Paul Wouters
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Patrik Fältström
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael Richardson
- Re: China Jeffrey Haas
- Re: China Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Stefan Winter
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: China Michael Richardson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Toerless Eckert (eckert)
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael Richardson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: A distinction along Pete's dimensions Ray Pelletier
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: China Scott Bradner
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: China Tim Chown
- Re: China Ray Pelletier
- Re: China Mary Barnes
- Re: SV: Concerns about Singapore Martin Rex
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: China HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore David Morris
- Re: China Ole Jacobsen
- Re: China Melinda Shore
- Re: China Ole Jacobsen
- Re: China Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael Richardson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John G. Scudder
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Follow-ups: Concerns about Singapore Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Harish Pillay
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Harish Pillay
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Harish Pillay
- Re: China JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: China Ray Pelletier
- Re: China Stewart Bryant
- Re: China Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore joel jaeggli
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael StJohns
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Patrik Fältström
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Warren Kumari
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore nalini.elkins
- Re: Concerns about Singapore chopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael StJohns
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael StJohns
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Jared Mauch
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places John Levine
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael StJohns
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Robert Withers
- Re: Concerns about Singapore chopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Vinayak Hegde
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- RE: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Hutton, Andrew
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Stephen Farrell
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- Virtual Meetings John Leslie
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Stewart Bryant
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: Concerns about Singapore chopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Richard Shockey
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Jared Mauch
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Rich Kulawiec
- 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concerns ab… Stephen Farrell
- Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Singapo… chopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… David Farmer
- Meetecho was Re: Concerns about Singapore lloyd.wood
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore George Michaelson
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Stephen Farrell
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Mark Andrews
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Miles Fidelman
- Re: Meetecho was Re: Concerns about Singapore Jared Mauch
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Harald Alvestrand
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Tim Chown
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Tim Chown
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… chopps
- Re: Meetecho was Re: Concerns about Singapore Mikael Abrahamsson
- Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singapore) Tim Chown
- Re: Meetecho was Re: Concerns about Singapore Tim Chown
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Loa Andersson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Loa Andersson
- Re: Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singap… Ted Lemon
- Re: Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singap… Alia Atlas
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… chopps
- Re: Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singap… Tim Chown
- Re: Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singap… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Mary Barnes
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Christian Hopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Theodore V Faber
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dhruv Dhody
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Melinda Shore
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Theodore V Faber
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Miles Fidelman
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Theodore V Faber
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Melinda Shore
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… chopps
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… chopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Melinda Shore
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Stewart Bryant
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Andy Bierman
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places John R Levine
- UK blacklist (Re: Concerns about Singapore and ot… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: UK blacklist (Re: Concerns about Singapore an… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Alia Atlas
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: UK blacklist (Re: Concerns about Singapore an… Tim Chown
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places Tony Finch
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places tom p.
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Yoav Nir
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Loa Andersson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Jeffrey Haas
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Theodore V Faber
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Brian E Carpenter