Re: A sad farewell
Behcet Sarikaya <sarikaya2012@gmail.com> Wed, 04 November 2020 15:24 UTC
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References: <71444008-c716-d83f-a2e2-6e4c7e3fd58a@levkowetz.com> <5360E06F-5639-43D6-8A7E-FA141989A884@gmail.com> <20201103200745.GA12654@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
In-Reply-To: <20201103200745.GA12654@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org
From: Behcet Sarikaya <sarikaya2012@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2020 09:24:16 -0600
Message-ID: <CAC8QAceZTWFzs7KYfUP963aC0bt1QBLkSOtMHmSLcqk5B6nuoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: A sad farewell
To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
Cc: Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>, IETF Discussion <ietf@ietf.org>
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On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 2:10 PM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote: > I find the responses on this thread quite frustrating. > > They are exactly like what i have come to experience when people > have to leave big companies because of horribly bad management and > nobody sees a way to improve management. I would have hoped > that IETF culture and community influence was better and that > something like this should not have happened or could even be > reversed by community outcry and forcing change in leadership > behavior. > > I am sorry to hear the insight about LLC operations, because to me > the contributor facing view i had was very positive. But either i am > not on the right mailing lists, or these internal conflicts are > not exposed at all for the community to be able to influence them. > > In any case, i fear that progress of tooling, especially in these > critical times of migration to XMLv3 starting to expose limitations > and IMHO a need for ongoing "free-of-process" improvement of tooling. > > To me, IETF is best when it is driven by engagement of contributors, > and (rough) community consensus, and not by leadership decisions. > Unfortunately, i think we are shifting more and more to this leadership > preference based constrainment of innitiatives, innovation and activities, > spending more time on prohibiting activities than encouraging them. > This is IMHO, what is going to kill IETF if it continues. > > To me, the tooling team was predominantly visible through the > extreme responsible hands-on work of Henrik, and i just considered > him to be the lead contributor to the "tools-track", so the fact > that he was because of reasons of contract and management decisions > kept out of the strategy is exactly the problem of self-righteous > managemenet centric companies. I guess we never had better oversight > of management tradition, because we came from a long time where we > may have just been very lucky in our choices of leadership. I don't know. > > +1 on all points. Congrats to Toerless for being outspoken. Behcet > *sigh* > > Cheers > toerless > > On Tue, Nov 03, 2020 at 02:19:52PM -0500, Suresh Krishnan wrote: > > I am very sorry to hear that Henrik. Thanks for everything you have done > for us over the years. The tools work you did made my IETF work as an > author, chair, reviewer and AD much more pleasant and efficient. We will > greatly miss you. > > > > Regards > > Suresh > > > > > On Nov 3, 2020, at 9:42 AM, Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com> > wrote: > > > > > > Dear friends and acquaintances, > > > > > > After 20 years of writing tools for the IETF, I will let my contract > for > > > tools maintenance lapse at the end of the year, and move on to other > things. > > > The reason is the attitude of the current IETF Chair and LLC Board > towards > > > contractors in particular and IETF participants in general. Care for > the > > > community doesn't seem to matter to them. > > > > > > The current Chair and LLC Board seems to see contractors, including the > > > secretariat and myself, not as members of the community, but simply > someone > > > who should do what they are told by the authority in charge. This in > total > > > contrast with the approach of Russ Housley as IETF Chair; he explicitly > > > tried to make the secretariat and other contractors an integral part > of the > > > community, inviting them in, rather than pushing them out. > > > > > > Remembering how supportive the previous full Exec Dir, Ray Pelletier > had > > > been with respect to the tools work, I was hoping that things would > change > > > at the end of last year with Jay Daley; unfortunately it hasn't; > rather the > > > opposite, and it has simply become too painful to carry on. > > > > > > Things got bad at the end of last year, when the LLC Board went back > on their > > > word after accepting my bid on the RFP in full without reservations; > they > > > simply changed the contract offered without one word of conversation > about > > > the changes. My bid would have been substantially different for an > RFP with > > > the conditions in that contract. That was tough, but the final straw > came at > > > the beginning of 2020, when a Tools Architecture and Strategy Team was > > > established to look at the tools future, and I was excluded from it. > Being > > > considered a replaceable cog and not a part of the community is not a > fun > > > environment in which to work, and I've been depressed for most of the > year > > > following that. > > > > > > The consequence is, as indicated above, that I will not sign on to any > > > contract renewal or bid on any new RFP when the current term runs out > for > > > the tools maintenance contract at the end of the year. > > > > > > Many and big thanks are due to all the IETF chairs who have supported > and > > > encouraged my tools work: Harald Alvestrand, Brian Carpenter, Russ > Housley, > > > and Jari Arkko. Huge appreciation and gratitude also goes to Robert > Sparks > > > and Russ Housley for the privilege of working with them in the Tools > Team > > > and the TMC (Tools Management Committee). And finally, thanks to all > the > > > members of the community who over the years have made it a joy to do > tools > > > work, by expressing their appreciation of the tools. > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > The longer story, for background, to explain how I came to feel so > strongly > > > about being excluded from tools architecture work and having the LLC > Board > > > go back on their word without even thinking it was worth talking to me > about > > > it: > > > > > > I wrote my first draft of a draft in 1999; my first meeting was IETF > 49. > > > > > > In 2001, Sami Vaarala and I both presented drafts outlining NAT > traversal > > > for Mobile IP, and based on the way we worked to merge these and build > > > consensus, I became co-chair of MIP4, a position I held till the group > was > > > closed in 2015 (although there was essentially no activity during the > last > > > 5 years). > > > > > > I early thought it absolutely silly that in the internet age, IETF > documents > > > were not available as HTML documents with internal and external > links. That > > > led to rfcmarkup (2002), which was deployed to provide htmlized > versions of > > > RFCs, and later drafts, first on my own domain, and later on > tools.ietf.org. > > > > > > As I was writing drafts, I was annoyed with having to manually check > the format > > > requirements (line length, boilerplate, and whatnot), and adapted an > awk > > > snipped as a 10-line script to check line length for me (2003). That > grew, > > > and became 'idnits'. > > > > > > Having to read new revisions of drafts, to keep up with other Mobile IP > > > contributions, I found it annoying not to know where the changes in > the new > > > rev were, and how much was changed. This led to 'rfcdiff' (2003). > > > > > > As WG co-chairs, we had to put together a summary of the status of the > various > > > documents before each meeting -- that status report was the main way > to let > > > participants know about draft progress, since there was no datatracker > in > > > 2000, and no WG support in the IESG tracker tool when it appeared. > Doing the > > > summary each meeting was very much drudge work, and becoming tired of > repeating > > > the exercise each meeting, I created a document status page for MIP4, > updated > > > automatically from various text files available from the draft > repository and > > > the IESG tracker (around 2004). Other chairs saw this, and asked me > to do the > > > same for them, and it grew from there, and was eventually incorporated > into the > > > official datatracker as WG pages. > > > > > > Around late 2006/early 2007, serious SQL injection vulnerabilities were > > > discovered in the datatracker as it was then. After a lot of > feet-dragging > > > by the vendor in addressing the vulnerabilities, Bill Fenner and I > started > > > a skunk-works project to completely rewrite the publicly accessible > datatracker > > > from old-style Perl to Python and Django. For 2 months we worked up > to 10 > > > hours per day, and disclosed the effort only when we had enough in > place to > > > show that the effort was viable. The powers that were applauded the > effort, > > > and we carried through, and released the rewrite in June 2007. > > > > > > I continued to do tools work during 40%-50% of my time up till 2016, > at no > > > cost to the IETF -- all work and tools were donated by myself or my > employer > > > over the years. In 2016 I was about to switch employers, and the IETF > > > Chair and several previous chairs saw the opportunity to get me to > work full > > > time on IETF tools, which I happily did until the current chair > started to > > > seriously treat me not as a member of the community but as a > contractor that > > > needed to be told just what to do in early 2018. After that, things > went > > > downhill. > > > > > > As mentioned earlier, the final straw came early this year, when > Alissa and > > > Jay decided to set up a Tools Architecture and Strategy Team, and > excluded > > > me from that work. That was to me such a clear and unequivocal > statement > > > of me not being considered part of the community that it drove me into > a > > > depression, from which I could only partially recover by distancing > myself > > > from the tools effort more and more. The depression has gone in waves > in > > > the following months, often triggered by additional actions and > statements > > > showing the same attitude. > > > > > > I don't know which attitude the next Chair will have, but even if it's > more > > > in line with earlier chairs, the LLC Board and Jay, who have been part > of > > > making this year a miserable one for me, will still be there, not much > changed. > > > > > > So it's not with joy I move on and look for other things to occupy me; > it's > > > with sadness in abandoning an area in which I've invested a lot of > myself > > > over the last 20 years. > > > > > > My best wishes to you all going forward. > > > > > > > > > Henrik > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de > >
- Re: A sad farewell Russ Housley
- A sad farewell Henrik Levkowetz
- Re: A sad farewell Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: A sad farewell Alissa Cooper
- RE: A sad farewell Ron Bonica
- Re: A sad farewell Barry Leiba
- Re: A sad farewell Suresh Krishnan
- Re: A sad farewell Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: A sad farewell Toerless Eckert
- Re: A sad farewell Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: A sad farewell Keith Moore
- Re: A sad farewell JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: A sad farewell Stephen Farrell
- Re: A sad farewell Daniel Migault
- Re: A sad farewell S Moonesamy
- Re: A sad farewell Charlie Perkins
- Re: A sad farewell Jay Daley
- Re: A sad farewell Loa Andersson
- Re: A sad farewell Soininen, Jonne (Nokia - FI/Espoo)
- Re: A sad farewell Dirk Kutscher
- Re: A sad farewell Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: A sad farewell Carsten Bormann
- Re: A sad farewell Lloyd W
- Re: A sad farewell Leif Johansson
- Re: A sad farewell Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: A sad farewell Julian Reschke
- Re: A sad farewell Ralph Droms
- Re: A sad farewell Brian E Carpenter
- Re: A sad farewell Benoit Claise
- Re: A sad farewell Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: A sad farewell Keith Moore
- Re: A sad farewell Joseph Touch
- Re: A sad farewell Jim Fenton
- Re: A sad farewell Alia Atlas
- RE: A sad farewell Valery Smyslov
- WAIT. Take a moment. Re: A sad farewell Eliot Lear
- Re: WAIT. Take a moment. Re: A sad farewell Alexander Pelov
- Re: WAIT. Take a moment. Re: A sad farewell Carsten Bormann
- Re: WAIT. Take a moment. Re: A sad farewell Henrik Levkowetz
- Re: A sad farewell Henrik Levkowetz
- Re: A sad farewell Mehmet Ersue
- RE: A sad farewell Eric Gray
- Re: A sad farewell Stewart Bryant
- Re: A sad farewell Theodore Y. Ts'o
- Re: A sad farewell Leif Johansson
- Re: A sad farewell Larry Masinter
- Re: A sad farewell Leif Johansson
- Re: A sad farewell Pete Resnick
- Re: A sad farewell Carsten Bormann
- Re: A sad farewell Joe Touch
- Re: A sad farewell Joel M. Halpern
- Re: A sad farewell Larry Masinter
- Re: A sad farewell Jay Daley
- Re: A sad farewell Joseph Touch
- Re: A sad farewell Larry Masinter
- Re: A sad farewell Brian E Carpenter
- Re: A sad farewell Jay Daley
- Re: A sad farewell Salz, Rich
- Re: A sad farewell Larry Masinter
- Re: A sad farewell Salz, Rich
- Re: A sad farewell Salz, Rich
- Re: A sad farewell Larry Masinter
- Re: A sad farewell Joseph Touch
- Re: A sad farewell Keith Moore
- Re: A sad farewell Masataka Ohta
- Re: A sad farewell Joseph Touch
- Re: A sad farewell Lloyd W
- Re: A sad farewell Leif Johansson
- discussion of tools and requirements Re: A sad fa… Amelia Andersdotter
- Re: A sad farewell Fernando Gont
- Re: A sad farewell Livingood, Jason
- Re: A sad farewell Livingood, Jason
- RE: A sad farewell Adrian Farrel
- Re: A sad farewell Livingood, Jason
- Re: A sad farewell Fernando Gont
- Re: A sad farewell Alissa Cooper
- Re: A sad farewell Salz, Rich
- Document diffs... Re: A sad farewell Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Document diffs... Re: A sad farewell Joseph Touch
- Re: Document diffs... Re: A sad farewell Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: A sad farewell tom petch
- Re: Document diffs... Re: A sad farewell Joseph Touch
- Re: A sad farewell Russ Housley
- Why we have situated software (Re: A sad farewell) Carsten Bormann
- Re: Why we have situated software (Re: A sad fare… Pete Resnick
- Why we have situated software (Re: A sad farewell) Carsten Bormann
- Re: Document diffs... Re: A sad farewell Carsten Bormann
- Re: A sad farewell Donald Eastlake
- and... text for the win Michael Richardson
- Re: and... text for the win John Levine
- Re: and... text for the win Carsten Bormann
- Re: and... text for the win Julian Reschke
- Re: and... text for the win Christian Huitema
- Re: and... text for the win Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: and... text for the win Carsten Bormann
- Re: and... text for the win Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: and... text for the win Charlie Perkins
- Re: A sad farewell Masataka Ohta
- What is going wrong? Was: A sad farewell Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: What is going wrong? Was: A sad farewell Masataka Ohta