Re: What can IETF do? Re: Further update on COVID-19
Joseph Potvin <jpotvin@xalgorithms.org> Wed, 26 February 2020 22:42 UTC
Return-Path: <jpotvin@xalgorithms.org>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 928493A0989 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:42:53 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=xalgorithms-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lTUhD_Guv9SH for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:42:50 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-qk1-x72e.google.com (mail-qk1-x72e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5EEEC3A098C for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:42:50 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-qk1-x72e.google.com with SMTP id o28so1244177qkj.9 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:42:50 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=xalgorithms-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=7A58P/arCm9RDNBfjcybD5cno+njt4jw/aj+TB8SsS4=; b=FZ1MXLfCy45BUlY49I3zk01SHOqRz3T5q0SxzICEHMBcrk1kCeiB59HTUj+f6oxzIF Myk7Hg5eZkyOwrMgwuNPqaoRjBij4PYsFtJNZY2VcjvANlINiYmYEwWGzBC3aZrc4wN9 5Bu8rmdcgvXcQIoROP6w5bAAN8/Bifwehb7w0vIBNv4qGrORk4JtLTp2+2S2ptqgPnYo ua/sr2Qy4hOWP7Q9+/ofU6zhEc4Ui1Le0aYYpZSVG1MKetSeO5R/XY/0vtM2+3wgIvjn 5JypDsV2YVI8TuA78BS1+H3dqY261b/JOjIHHeEh3pvgScDeoNwo21x0hi19v5QuuYtd ndZg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=7A58P/arCm9RDNBfjcybD5cno+njt4jw/aj+TB8SsS4=; b=DiGYo/IezrpYvrMp3BONTqFKRLEWtGlRMel85SXx8gK2M2w+XxKc2LLufvNXL7U8Mk +26RhanEuaCmugGDkU8x/7emB7nLNSfF/DN6rccEsu9pJuG8J9xPRclwFe6ATWw7IftA nkOLrDWLKcfi33rpGl6XrG1tqOX+0OefKLx2c+2fE1N3gEN9gc6a1a4XQhtqIaTdSffb 7ixG+4HiTxzAbPFqY00uQro5HToEFbo1DskAZ9iFy/Zuuaq/2S9otoa4KTuqB+JYTEVW SFe5Gm8jvOUAZx2Ml70ZMbHIzUCvM4VixKp8fGbA+FCIpmnmOeH+U3AqE/eyIV6kpPcB 7o6g==
X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWSo3ZmIG7DZxA1FFBp36/XOS0FttLQ3D6Q3fjzfu2dkSkEUDe7 9M9fKTpUOS4EIcQaGEv4V9hR+oXAAmgWjnQkWBRk9JGSZPI=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyGV8hRrSXY+5W/F7Cyq4XG1kPyRPV8PpBq/ovC/GgsP9LqYfOr54lJ9QdQXa5Zcyt54cQ6eXgbTLRWwBSfgIA=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:7eb:: with SMTP id k11mr1689201qkk.486.1582756969299; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:42:49 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <158258721017.24319.9082233711977122647.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <CAAObRXJ=NnrxLAGgtas8Cs_jw-AJ0YsgYpMmYtrHy+PjKsfqvg@mail.gmail.com> <CAMm+Lwh17iOi_8qZ7at8gHQ6R38YwVuUZ8O1cpsJU7MKh+nMmA@mail.gmail.com> <DBBPR03MB5415B842B32E90BF91D0C361EEEA0@DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <CAAuWHCKRhe-ct2tP5TqBaCn_fSTBoFSkrppTKOyhoP_xW6Ydag@mail.gmail.com> <CAMm+LwjLzP5bA56mPV0OxdBV=hWKCaD8DN7bqJ0gipq67-iwpw@mail.gmail.com> <2e8208f7-1a67-2baa-8685-71bf33f029e4@joelhalpern.com> <CAMm+LwjM6nJwu2XKwCdcBCWa=vP-Y5w2v6xNZupMpf_k65cM4w@mail.gmail.com> <89b8ebec-3abe-e7b4-e856-2de851731735@foobar.org> <CAAuWHCKZEbDKmKWzhgFuDaBVZMtDAGfNktPvZTzU8fp9Cr8NkA@mail.gmail.com> <CC7D4D98-5FE8-4F59-8CC6-63E8872EE8FD@ietf.org> <f4af3a15-570f-a595-2d17-896a6db62173@network-heretics.com> <CAL02cgTUCS_WMsYYqE32wz5DWNyosBOR7W_ygsi4bOoY3F+-jQ@mail.gmail.com> <2088d7e7-34c1-ab7b-59c6-b8fe3ce5607d@gmail.com> <CAMm+Lwgc8NRg8E-DeqCZW=re+LerVpnaG94LWY87mY3gB7o3Vg@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAMm+Lwgc8NRg8E-DeqCZW=re+LerVpnaG94LWY87mY3gB7o3Vg@mail.gmail.com>
From: Joseph Potvin <jpotvin@xalgorithms.org>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:42:22 -0500
Message-ID: <CAAuWHC+U_KDXpiJpgipU2ph2Ev1d4qrcv0=O82PwsDkg0PBhLA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: What can IETF do? Re: Further update on COVID-19
To: IETF Discussion Mailing List <ietf@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ebd311059f8252ed"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/VFIwavjNSdIFbCVt56N2BXtnHis>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 22:42:54 -0000
Another impromptu, no-account-needed utility suitable to on-the-fly co-drafting is Etherpad, also free/libre/open https://etherpad.org/. To see a drafting video for original work (in 2015) on creation of what became https://www.openchainproject.org/, click the "play" icon here: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/openchain/timeslider#11010 I've used this in meetings for live collaborative rapporteur annotations, comments, and feedback. The fact that it requires no accounts is an advantage or disadvantage relative to GoogleDocs. Joseph Potvin Executive Director, Xalgorithms Foundation Mobile: 819-593-5983 jpotvin@xalgorithms.org https://www.xalgorithms.org On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 5:04 PM Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> wrote: > On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 4:13 PM Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> On 2/26/20 12:08 PM, Richard Barnes wrote: >> > https://secondlife.com/ >> > >> > ISTR the IESG had a meeting there once a few years ago. >> >> Netroots Nation had a couple of conferences gatewayed into >> Second Life. It wasn't terrible, and that was over a decade >> ago. Might be worth experimenting with again. >> > > I could use an avatar at this point. It is somewhat ironic that I am > proposing this stuff when I can't do remote either. I can type and I can > read and I can think and thats about it. Anyway, this is the system I have > had in mind for quite a long time and is the reason I have built (and had > others build for me) some of the stuff I have in the past year. > > I am a systems guy, this is not just about conferences, its about the > system. > > > First, lets start with Internet Drafts. I have written my own > document handler taking Markdown and Word as inputs and generating XML2RFC > as an output format. > > The second half of that system is the comment forum. So the draft is > uploaded to some service. You can read through the draft and click the > pilcrow on any paragraph and a comment dialog opens up. This asks for: > > 1) Lightweight semantic: Agree/Disagree/Clarify/Object > 2) Explanation (some text). > > For IETF purposes, we don't need end-to-end security. But if we were going > to use this to provide group collaboration on bidding on RFPs or the drafts > of the quarterly SEC reports, we need that and I have designed the tools to > make that possible. > > Entering a comment creates an object which has its own lifecycle. > Basically a comment is an issue and these should eventually get cleared. So > when a new version of the draft is uploaded, the editor checks off which > comments have been cleared. > > So that is the sort of thing I want to replace mailing lists with. I want > the drafts to serve as the reference point for the discussion. > > > So now, let us imagine that an issue is raised that is more complex than > can be disposed of by a comment. Something like the discussion we are > having now. Well that is the point at which I would like to be able to set > up an ad-hoc virtual meeting to discuss that particular point. So lets say > we have a bunch of issues raised on the splunge topic: > > 1) Someone proposes a virtual meeting. > 2) (optional) WG Chair, Editor approves. > 3) Negotiation of date, time, agenda > 4) Have meeting > 5) Report back result > > Point here is that while we talk about 'consensus', that is rarely the > relevant test. Quite often, the relevant test is 'is there a major security > hole if we do things this way' or 'what are the interop concerns'. > > The type of capabilities that are relevant to a meeting of that type are > likely to be: > > 1) Voice > 2) Screen sharing (for slides, demos, etc.) > 3) Video > 4) Whiteboard input (i.e. iPad + pencil or Microsoft Surface type > interaction) > 5) Transcription (voice to text). > > Oh and yes, we want all this on the record and to save every byte for IETF > and for Enterprise. But I can also provide an OTR version of the security > protocols. > > We need to have some sort of concept of process rules. Not necessarily > Roberts Rules. But maybe everyone in the meeting starts with ten minutes to > talk and that counts down when they hold the floor. And maybe if someone is > saying something interesting people can pass some of their time to them. > And maybe we have thumbnails of everyone apart from the person with the > floor who gets full screen treatment. > > > So this is not quite hallway discussion but it is close. Some hallway > discussions fit into this pattern. When I go to an IETF, I know that I have > a list of folk I want to raise very specific issues with. But the other > part of it is 'serendipity'. I am not quite sure how to incorporate that > into the model yet. > > One option would be a sort of Facebook like feed with some sort of > curation process that results in proposals to hold meetups or discussions. > Or maybe we have a model in which there is a large public concourse and > people who are interested go off to private meetings. > > > PHB >
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Arleen Elliott
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Alexandre Petrescu
- RE: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Belotti, Sergio (Nokia - IT/Vimercate)
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Carsten Bormann
- RE: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Belotti, Sergio (Nokia - IT/Vimercate)
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Stewart Bryant
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Mary B
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Mary B
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Carsten Bormann
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … John C Klensin
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Tim Bray
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Michael Richardson
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Nico Williams
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Michael StJohns
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Nico Williams
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Carsten Bormann
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Davey Song
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- RE: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Andrew Alston
- RE: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Belotti, Sergio (Nokia - IT/Vimercate)
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … tom petch
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Joseph Potvin
- What can IETF do? Re: Further update on COVID-19 Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: What can IETF do? Re: Further update on COVID… Joel M. Halpern
- RE: What can IETF do? Re: Further update on COVID… Larry Masinter
- Re: What can IETF do? Re: Further update on COVID… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: What can IETF do? Re: Further update on COVID… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- RE: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Ron Bonica
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Jared Mauch
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Warren Kumari
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Robert Raszuk
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Carlos M. Martinez
- Re: What can IETF do? Re: Further update on COVID… Nick Hilliard
- Re: What can IETF do? Re: Further update on COVID… Joseph Potvin
- Re: What can IETF do? Re: Further update on COVID… Carsten Bormann
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Michael Richardson
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Michael Richardson
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Victor Kuarsingh
- Re: What can IETF do? Re: Further update on COVID… Jay Daley
- Re: What can IETF do? Re: Further update on COVID… Keith Moore
- Re: What can IETF do? Re: Further update on COVID… Richard Barnes
- Re: What can IETF do? Re: Further update on COVID… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: What can IETF do? Re: Further update on COVID… Andrew G. Malis
- Re: What can IETF do? Re: Further update on COVID… Melinda Shore
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: What can IETF do? Re: Further update on COVID… Joseph Potvin
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Jay Daley
- Re: What can IETF do? Re: Further update on COVID… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: What can IETF do? Re: Further update on COVID… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: What can IETF do? Re: Further update on COVID… Joseph Potvin
- RE: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Roni Even (A)
- RE: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Alexander Pelov
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Livingood, Jason
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Stewart Bryant
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Michael Richardson
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Michael Richardson
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Nick Hilliard
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Carlos M. Martinez
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Fred Baker
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Carsten Bormann
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Carsten Bormann
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Christian Hopps
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Donald Eastlake
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Carsten Bormann
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Christian Hopps
- Cookies as a transmission vector [was: Re: Furthe… John Scudder
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Joseph Potvin
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Bob Hinden
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Michael Richardson
- Re: Further update on COVID-19 (Coronavirus) and … Joseph Potvin
- RE: Cookies as a transmission vector [was: Re: Fu… Ron Bonica
- Re: Cookies as a transmission vector [was: Re: Fu… Kathleen Moriarty