Re: [EXTERNAL] IETF 104 Registration and Hotel Reservations Openo

Yoav Nir <ynir.ietf@gmail.com> Tue, 15 January 2019 17:12 UTC

Return-Path: <ynir.ietf@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFEED130EB5 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 15 Jan 2019 09:12:14 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.999
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gkVsMigYtyD4 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 15 Jan 2019 09:12:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-wr1-x434.google.com (mail-wr1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86F35130EA7 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 15 Jan 2019 09:12:10 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-wr1-x434.google.com with SMTP id u4so3862490wrp.3 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 15 Jan 2019 09:12:10 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=0CN8XVN0lescJS1fO3VdVj06Cjmqi1RQ6FLzEnZDC9Y=; b=UBSnfyQ8/a24+xw6lCOs7sQzOuA6s9E+X8RTrW8QTtgYlgHIF8ox9hzvsTsZMWcgiL xPmopjfBwmxVN2pJnSL53X2Y2gcnv/TwNGTArPJcygwFZ2I91RY5ck2riDdMi4ja7uKF 9JlY29WotJpiys3V41JzP/JnUOG+eYoeDSvxlWkhoNJaNyCgB+RnSD7G26KVcr0iRg2S D+HknZ8daUozN7vvYGhSRaa+P7ZpMiUHNHk25CJdHfHlB+I+oGuHYCko43i7hdVnsSt9 jw+N4TWj2RBiz7jkyDIaeuaOM5fuzMDqvDxdZxjFHKLuebuezxPB6WamyHpgKV74Te5k QTtw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=0CN8XVN0lescJS1fO3VdVj06Cjmqi1RQ6FLzEnZDC9Y=; b=jpYFyxi7X7VjLgyHBjhYuUEBEfhtXXf345Z4ZiuuWtHpMMy+ll3Rx3tUWXsC1VSbNg /1TNArmfkN89uZi30bLzHoj9Mif0jume0aBs8S3jd2QIZ04jwKjQ84A5nQ5ssEM60gxe MWWjjQ4JLlvtzWQtBEo3x0mYkUP9eBLvNDAushl+Qy5sKSeeAD2ep1ekmm45ycs54Vy9 HIEv7ZMIrkCKhHbsmWAklxsHjFKRw+60iLXkkkpmwjssGhww69vtL7fdmqSsKTmzIMFV XXdGXGoDZZ2TUSb8ahMBeFdPrhfH/lSsdsTaHK6qQJ/14K8sKCaBxzl2zSVhMlheLGX/ OifA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukeFPkToGMKsEx14Guwz6lqXSNZVhLLQwjiZobk7T2/le4MjRaRE wL6thb34wP8Rn7cN9Lb/i+E=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN41A6zr/i6xn917LZvKG0yS1tk9p6+dQ8wcgvlHvcmD92iSg4UVh2vQEyF9piJE4xdEyUmmQw==
X-Received: by 2002:adf:94e4:: with SMTP id 91mr4174679wrr.322.1547572328884; Tue, 15 Jan 2019 09:12:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [192.168.1.12] ([46.120.57.147]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 198sm51788492wmt.36.2019.01.15.09.12.05 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 15 Jan 2019 09:12:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Yoav Nir <ynir.ietf@gmail.com>
Message-Id: <5A555852-3651-4045-9E11-2B09E3EC5A34@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D4FC2777-B7EA-4057-8120-1C955291F844"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\))
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] IETF 104 Registration and Hotel Reservations Openo
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 19:12:01 +0200
In-Reply-To: <CABmDk8knLFDDoTu4U=Ap2zXnbMhZg25aYG35ZwoFQy+ZXSYNeA@mail.gmail.com>
Cc: "Andrew G. Malis" <agmalis@gmail.com>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>
To: Mary B <mary.h.barnes@gmail.com>
References: <20181220194742.39286200BC3F9B@ary.qy> <C4C3E99E-7FDF-42AD-8AAF-BA9A7BF9DF62@soton.ac.uk> <alpine.OSX.2.21.1812211147590.48467@ary.qy> <E0B84494-6B60-4AEB-B8E9-8C6F673624FA@tzi.org> <E73FC76E-6CD5-4543-A189-D51ACC7EAEBE@amsl.com> <167d262e9c8.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> <23396A80-F252-4FFB-B0D0-B17D86F1C73E@amsl.com> <44640168-deb7-c613-3420-ad5df95b1736@labn.net> <956E76FA5156981CD09F5C1F@PSB> <098ecda6-b344-7cb7-5943-d6279ee89108@labn.net> <7C9DD929-2301-4993-9B03-A15B41B8D664@nbcuni.com> <sa6va2qotld.fsf@chopps.org> <CAPt1N1n7=eZqABbejLCuURMpJCQJE8WL3xuOrMTzCG5mSW9vhw@mail.gmail.com> <sa6tviaos7w.fsf@chopps.org> <CAPt1N1mYRiMeHVEPA3_gV0Zhus8nc=pK94FN2LSadN2V6Zc_Og@mail.gmail.com> <CAA=duU3SKvyzwN1ojFgdasKnOsP=Ak4Sw6cHf0kyG0reK0buqg@mail.gmail.com> <CABmDk8knLFDDoTu4U=Ap2zXnbMhZg25aYG35ZwoFQy+ZXSYNeA@mail.gmail.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/Wujd6zyKdqThmJM9MTcTjKHHY-0>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 17:12:15 -0000

Having full support doesn’t necessarily help either.

At my previous job company policy was that we were not allowed to book any hotel without a 48-hour cancellation policy.

> On 15 Jan 2019, at 18:08, Mary B <mary.h.barnes@gmail.com>; wrote:
> 
> So, the cancellation terms for the IETF rate for this meeting are not particularly generous - 21 days!  And, the other lower rates that were available had the usual Hilton 48 hr cancellation.   Having such an early cancellation along with the recent change in meeting rates really makes it hard for people that don't have full support for attending these meetings until a couple weeks prior - it takes some of us a lot longer to negotiate the value.    It means the meetings increasingly favor those that work for large corporations who don't consider this a huge burden on budgets.  
> 
> Regards,
> Mary.
> 
> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 9:58 AM Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com <mailto:agmalis@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Also, when comparing hotel rates you have to be careful to compare apples to apples. Breakfast is included in the IETF rate, but other rates may not. What are the payment and cancellation terms? Many low rates require complete prepayment and are not refundable.
> 
> IMHO, the rate we're paying is pretty good, and there are less expensive alternatives if you want that, such as the overflow hotels and other hotels in the area.
> 
> Cheers,
> Andy
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 10:33 AM Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com <mailto:mellon@fugue.com>> wrote:
> Because that deal is not on offer.   The hotel is trying to create market conditions that favor them, and they don't offer a deal that doesn't sustain those conditions.  You can argue that agreeing to these conditions is stupid, but not agreeing to them may result in the hotel not being willing to host the conference, or may result in the IETF paying a hefty premium.   Remember that the IETF is not negotiating from a position of great power here, and so we can't really set the terms.   We can try, and of course if you want to volunteer to work on this I'm sure your help would be appreciated, but when all's said and done, the results of the negotiation are never going to be that the IETF gets everything we asked for.
> 
> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 10:28 AM Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org <mailto:chopps@chopps.org>> wrote:
> 
> OK, so why not have the requirement that the hotel must lower the IETF rate for all attendees to any lower rate they subsequently advertise?
> 
> Thanks,
> Chris.
> 
> Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com <mailto:mellon@fugue.com>> writes:
> 
> > It might help to re-frame it.   What's going on here is that the hotel is
> > trying (intentionally or accidentally) to sweeten their deal.   They get
> > the IETF to agree to a room rate, and agree to hold the price in the
> > presence of market fluctuation.   Effectively the IETF has now purchased
> > some futures at a particular price, and the hotel is now competing against
> > the IETF on that price, and they have nothing to lose because if the IETF
> > doesn't sell all its rooms, the IETF takes the loss, not the hotel....   This
> > is particularly exacerbated by the fact that the hotel was selling
> > different rooms at different prices, whereas if you take the IETF rate you
> > just get whatever room you get, which is probably what's left over after
> > all the premium rooms are sold, since those rooms were being sold at about
> > the IETF rate.
> >
> > So yeah, it looks like you're losing out, but you really aren't the victim
> > here.
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 9:59 AM Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org <mailto:chopps@chopps.org>> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Why not KISS? IETF should negotiate a fair rate that is worth what we will
> >> be paying *upfront*, and leave it at that.
> >>
> >> Notwithstanding the complex turns of logic presented on this thread, it
> >> just feels wrong for me to find a better deal only to have IETF come in
> >> take it away from me.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Chris.
> >>
> >> Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) <Glenn.Deen@nbcuni.com <mailto:Glenn.Deen@nbcuni....com>> writes:
> >>
> >> >> On Jan 6, 2019, at 12:24 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Obviously we can't change existing contracts, but we can stop asking
> >> that the "no lower rates offered" clause be inserted in future contracts --
> >> again, it is my understanding (which of course can simply be wrong) that
> >> this clause was first added to hotel contracts by the IETF, specifically
> >> the IAD at that time.
> >> >>
> >> >> Lou
> >> >
> >> > I’m not sure I agree with you in this.  The purpose of the clause is to
> >> say “the IETF negotiated rate is the lowest that the hotel will offer
> >> during the meeting window.”  In other words they are agreeing negotiate one
> >> rate with the IETF as part of our overall meeting contract and agreeing to
> >> also not then go and negotiate a undercutting rate with some travel web
> >> site for instance.
> >> >
> >> > One big part of this is intended to make sure the ietf rate is the best
> >> rate across its whole block.  Another big part related to the first is that
> >> ietf attendees do not need to worry they there was a better deal that they
> >> missed because they didn’t spend a couple
> >> > of hours on other travel sites, or a better deal because the booker
> >> early or waited.
> >> >
> >> > Being consistent for the whole IETF room block is an important part of
> >> this negotiation.   While a hotel may offer a couple of rooms at a discount
> >> they certainly aren’t doing that for any number of rooms as big as the ietf
> >> block which can be (simplified general numbers here)   600 rooms at say 6
> >> nights for a total of 3600 room nights that are available to IETF attendees
> >> all for the same price.
> >> >
> >> > This is as opposed to what I’ve seen on many hotel booking sights where
> >> the price changes up or down each night and you are
> >> > competing against every other customer to grab the cheapest rates before
> >> they are gone. Or you get a cheap first or last night and pay more for all
> >> the others.
> >> >
> >> > This is very different to the ietf rate which is the same for every room
> >> night for every attendees and is the same if you book as soon as
> >> registration opens or if you book just before arriving.
> >> >
> >> > The ietf gets a consistent and good rate for all its rooms and all times
> >> of booking. That’s a huge benefit for ietf participants, especially those
> >> that have to wait to get approval before booking their travel.
> >> >
> >> > Opposed to that consistency is the kind of room pricing that places like
> >> PriceLine engage in. Sure some individuals can get some deals occasionally,
> >> but it’s one thing to compete against the open market especially if you
> >> don’t have a particular goal of staying in a specific meeting hotel - it is
> >> an entirely different thing to pit IETF attendees against one another to
> >> edge out each other for a better room rate while leaving the scraps to
> >> those willing to pay the full rack rate when the supply gets low (which is
> >> a real and painful part of playing the hotel pricing market place)....
> >> >
> >> > So I don’t agree removing the clause is in the best interest of the ietf
> >> community.  It requires the hotel to act consistently with all IETFers who
> >> book a room at the hotel and it says that they do not need to waste time
> >> > hunting across the hotel discount sites looking for a better deal -
> >> because they have already got the best deal to be found on those sites.
> >> >
> >> > I will add that the IETF main mailing list is not the place to debate
> >> ietf meeting hotel practices. That belongs on mtgvenue@ietf.org <mailto:mtgvenue@ietf.org> which is
> >> the working group for meeting venue stuff.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Regards
> >> > Glenn
> >>
> >>
>