Re: Review of draft-mohali-dispatch-cause-for-service-number-12

Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> Mon, 19 December 2016 17:11 UTC

Return-Path: <fluffy@iii.ca>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B16FE129C1B for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 09:11:18 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.902
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aR5mN97yWTFx for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 09:11:13 -0800 (PST)
Received: from smtp126.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp126.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.126]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 182EB129C05 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 09:11:12 -0800 (PST)
Received: from smtp32.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp32.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 530905941; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 12:11:11 -0500 (EST)
X-Auth-ID: fluffy@iii.ca
Received: by smtp32.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: fluffy-AT-iii.ca) with ESMTPSA id B124F5983; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 12:11:10 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender-Id: fluffy@iii.ca
Received: from [10.1.3.253] (d75-159-45-76.abhsia.telus.net [75.159.45.76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:587 (trex/5.7.12); Mon, 19 Dec 2016 12:11:11 -0500
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.0 \(3226\))
Subject: Re: Review of draft-mohali-dispatch-cause-for-service-number-12
From: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>
In-Reply-To: <50a163d3-0ca0-fdd0-7cb8-b09de0a5a5e2@joelhalpern.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 10:11:09 -0700
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <1BDDB9BA-E712-4DC8-9194-A16DF97F84D1@iii.ca>
References: <148186064804.24550.3460112022117949321.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <9E288F8F-BD52-49D0-83B2-472F1B223127@nostrum.com> <f0e5f66a-a7be-8d4e-a865-2ba4a27d6a3a@joelhalpern.com> <EF7BE2FF-410D-4C4A-8CAC-2282726E1B5E@nostrum.com> <50a163d3-0ca0-fdd0-7cb8-b09de0a5a5e2@joelhalpern.com>
To: Joel Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3226)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/X-7DhGwCebvKkqNUvp6JJpl3pkE>
Cc: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, DISPATCH <dispatch@ietf.org>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org>, draft-mohali-dispatch-cause-for-service-number.all@ietf.org
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 17:11:19 -0000

> On Dec 15, 2016, at 10:07 PM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
> 
> At this point I will defer to the relevant ADs.

+1 on that :-)

> As far as I can tell, although the entry was created by an Informational RFC, the registry still claims that it is standards track.
> And since this document is defining behavior, it behaves more like a standards track document than an Informational one.
> 
> But it is up to you folks.  In teh end, all I can do is raise the question, not decide it :-)

So the registry takes PS to change it. And by the current SIP rules, I suspect (not sure) that an update to 4458 would also have to be PS. So really not sure how one gets around this not being PS. 


> 
> Yours,
> Joel
> 
> On 12/15/16 11:51 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>> 
>>> On Dec 15, 2016, at 10:35 PM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I see your point about this adding a value to the entry created by RFC 4458.
>>> Is there a reason this can not simply be PS?  The fact that 4458 is Informational does not, as far as I can tell, justify continuing the error.  While this is for a 3GPP usage, it appears to have been reviewed by the Dispatch WG sufficiently to justify PS.
>>> One could argue that there is a down-ref issue,
>>> but the fact that the field is in a standards-track required registry would seem to make that a moot point.
>>> 
>> 
>> Do you think it makes sense to make some new values for “cause” into a proposed standard when “cause” itself is informational?  That seems like a pretty big downref issue, as such issues go. (For the record, I could be convinced to re-run this LC as PS, but I suspect that would lead to objections in the opposite direction.)
>> 
>> Right now, the situation is a standards-action registry with a informational entry. That’s clearly broken, but I’m not sure that _this_ draft is the place to fix it.
>> 
>> Also, if it makes any difference—even there there was discussion in dispatch, this is not a dispatch work item.
>> 
>>> Yours,
>>> Joel
>>> 
>>> PS: It would seem that WG discussion of that sort is something we would like to see in Shepherd writeups.
>> 
>> There’s two paragraphs on the subject in section (1) of the shepherd writeup :-)  (but it wasn’t a working group discussion per se.)
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> Ben.
>> 
>>> 
>>> On 12/15/16 11:28 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>>>> Hi Joel,
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks for the comments. There has been a fair amount of discussion
>>>> about the status of the draft. The situation is clearly not optimal, and
>>>> I welcome input on how to straighten it out.
>>>> 
>>>> The rational so far has been that this draft updates RFC 4588, which is
>>>> informational. It adds some additional values and related semantics for
>>>> the "cause" parameter from 4588. It does not register new parameters;
>>>> rather it adds itself as a reference in the existing "cause"
>>>> registration. This is mainly a courtesy to readers. (There is no
>>>> sub-registry for "cause" parameter values.) We might could get by
>>>> without that change, since in a perfect world people following the IANA
>>>> reference to 4588 would notice the "Updated by..." tag.
>>>> 
>>>> The gotcha is that RFC 4588 would not be possible as an informational
>>>> today; it would not have standing to register the "cause" parameter. But
>>>> at the time it was published, there was a lack of clarity around the
>>>> "standards action" policy for the SIP URI parameters registry. Making
>>>> the new values from _this_ draft standards track, when the parameter
>>>> itself is not, doesn't seem appropriate. We had some discussion about
>>>> whether we should promote 4588 to PS, but there was not consensus to do
>>>> so when it was published, and I don't see reason to expect that to have
>>>> changed.
>>>> 
>>>> This draft is primarily intended to meet a need in 3GPP, where I
>>>> understand they are effectively already doing this. Would it help to
>>>> more tightly scope this as "Here's something 3GPP is doing..." rather
>>>> than as a general mechanism?
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks!
>>>> 
>>>> Ben.
>>>> 
>>>> On 15 Dec 2016, at 21:57, Joel Halpern wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Reviewer: Joel Halpern
>>>>> Review result: Ready with Issues
>>>>> 
>>>>> Major:
>>>>>   This document defines a new code for use in SIP, and specifies new
>>>>> behavior both for the code itself and for its use in history-info.  I
>>>>> am thus confused as to how this can be an informational RFC.  It looks
>>>>> like it either Proposed Standard or experimental.  Yes, I see that RFC
>>>>> 4458, which this updates is Informational.  But just because we did it
>>>>> wrong before does not make that behavior correct now.  In addition to
>>>>> my understanding of the roles of different RFCs, I note that RFC 3969
>>>>> and the IANA registry both state that this assignment must be made by
>>>>> a standards track RFC.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Minor:
>>>>>  Given our emphasis on IPv6 over IPv4, would it not make sense for
>>>>> the examples to use IPv6 addresses?  (Inspired by the Id-Nits alert.)
>> 
>> 
>