Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> (The Tao of IETF: A Novice's Guide to the Internet Engineering Task Force) to Informational RFC]

[Stephen Farrell <[e-mail]>]

I'm with Brian and Yoav on this. I don't see a need
to change here. And I do think we might lose something
if we become too PC. If a bunch of non-native speakers
did say "yes, I found that made the document less
useful" then I'd be more convinced that all these
changes were worth it.

On 05/31/2012 08:47 AM, Dave Crocker wrote:
> 
> On 5/31/2012 9:24 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> I actually have no evidence either way; that's why I suggested asking
>> some of them;-)
> 
> 1.  Reliance on self-reporting for such things is methodologically
> problematic.  It presumes a degree of self-awareness that is often
> missing.  For example a native speaker of a language that uses noun
> doubling -- saying the noun twice -- to indicate plurals was quite
> insistent with me that that wasn't the rule.
> 
> 2.  To claim a lack of evidence presumes some previous effort to acquire
> it.  However a quick search discloses:
> 
> 
> http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=054711CCAB4AFB348F7E70C9079E7305.journals?fromPage=online&aid=2546012

Paywalled. Abstract says "comprehen-sibility of the non-native's
interlanguage" so is a worse sinner IMO:-)

> http://dc.library.okstate.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/theses/id/1031/rec/9

Drives NoScript bonkers and needs some kind of FF plug in.

> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CF0QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fscholarcommons.usf.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1255%26context%3Detd&ei=iyDHT4eBB874sgaa-rGQDw&usg=AFQjCNFnYm2MzlDnknB6AzfB0Oi4tUVyVg

289 pages, so only read abstract.

That's about adolescents. My experience at IETF meetings is
that more native English speakers seem to behave like
adolescents, but maybe that's just me:-)

It does make the point that there's a (presumably positive)
correlation between understanding of idiom and academic
achievement,

I guess the argument could also be made that the Tao should
be about as difficult to read as a typical IETF mailing list.

S.

> 
> among others.
> 
> The mere existence of these ought to make clear that there is a
> significant issue in the use of colloquialisms with non-native listeners.
> 
> d/