Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Singapore]
Theodore V Faber <theodore.v.faber@aero.org> Tue, 12 April 2016 17:34 UTC
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From: Theodore V Faber <theodore.v.faber@aero.org>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Subject: Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Singapore]
Thread-Topic: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Singapore]
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Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 17:33:49 +0000
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 On 4/12/16 09:15, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Ted, you missed my point. Yes, I can arrange a call with the > relevant people. And I frequently do. It is harder, but that would > be acceptable. > > The important part is that such calls are MUCH less effective than > face-to-face discussions. There are lots of well-known reasons > for this. > > And no, inc ase it was not obvious, without the face-to-face > meeting, there is no way to arrange such face-to-face meetings. If the goal of the IETF is to replicate the experience of an IETF meeting using telepresence tools, that is an impossible task. Telepresence is not being present. To my mind, the question is if a large scale use of telepresence tools can create a working environment that the IETF membership can use to advance the IETF's goals. I'm curious enough about that question to support an assessment of how expensive and difficult it would be to replace one IETF meeting with a large scale telepresence experiment. I think we should evaluate that experiment (should it occur) based on whether or not the broader goals advance (standards and documents advance, new ideas are sparked, the membership is appropriately updated), not how they are advanced (discussions at the Scotch BOF, plenary and BA, speaking at the mic in WG meetings). I seems to me that a successful experiment would mean that we use more large scale telepresence. It may someday turn out that such events replace some IETF meetings; it may not. I don't know of any organizations of the scale of the IETF that have historically relied on face to face meetings and transitioned solely to large scale telepresence, so my expectation is that IETF meetings will continue. (Just to forestall the question: Anonymous seems to run entirely on large scale telepresence (for some definition thereof). It's got a whole set of procedures and traditions that enable that. It's a fascinating situation, but I see little inspiration or intuition for changing IETF procedures from it.) > > Yes, we should work to make remote participation more effective. > Doing away with the face-to-face meetings reminds me of the old SF > story of the ballet dancers who were forced to dance wearing extra > weights, to be "fair" to the less talented dancers. Paging Harrison Bergeron. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron - -- Ted Faber <theodore.v.faber@aero.org> Engineering Specialist Computer Systems Research Department 310-336-7373 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJXDTF7AAoJEFNjQnOBW8uOXRMP/1ynBlK7upPubIGAzvdqjLMx dBxvS+8sJKbFBGSf2upkexjBYiDHMXnCGkNXi+rMbb70eq9h62jD1SjEMXt58TH5 I93M07KDzWk0AhBXZmrZ5aj/K6BrtdGl/+BnKkmudn5mgqSg/Yho9QPALG/9KBuk 1nl3k0zAl43GEIqV+2Aaff2Us5Lcl2U03PJNRp2XMMjm+btJ/mXYW6SRNUdlYsaL +lIGAaQZ3D54LPrfyoMAQCLnA7/gAjU/KtM2lUxM3l6YJvYkcU1enBG/qFnbac1g IZp4OTuhOmlcEppmMj5auFzROZz0mjmXH8tecxwl01vd3lIDqeqJbbqQEyySVTqD 7w8tYliHbYzjrMwezQ9XQdkal1uly6vzP9/CWtK1OiBsr+dKJKRm1j78zOEEcLxl KimzbZLrvFfAWPwwKIpMf55Mc535bLviIsVPwmFGBbE0U7xs3d0OSK81BYUH57MZ QuBHQxjamYRH8qCU4d+AH78yVTu89IIM/Ilu6HN956QPa5Na+QU6o02t/yyO2iiF RBv8uJymDsvjoy5LoYHcQ7L3XO5LNwXin0lUtIY9KZ3mzqIJnBlGUVoh+whce9Al Fx+GM4MZPKmRmSlYyhwPG33M357UVUMxKCdS/lGiwR6sQUxMzSuxfDQ/aYpqG1Fj 5WR1cl4yU64RK/qaIl5r =7cfg -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
- Concerns about Singapore Jari Arkko
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Adam Roach
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dhruv Dhody
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Jeffrey Haas
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dhruv Dhody
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Donald Eastlake
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: Concerns about Singapore David Conrad
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Laurent Ciavaglia
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Laurent Ciavaglia
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Jared Mauch
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Bert Wijnen (IETF)
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- A distinction along Pete's dimensions (was: Re: C… John C Klensin
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: A distinction along Pete's dimensions Dave Crocker
- Re: A distinction along Pete's dimensions Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Christian Hopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: Concerns about Singapore nalini.elkins
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: A distinction along Pete's dimensions Jari Arkko
- China Ole Jacobsen
- SV: Concerns about Singapore Anne-Marie Eklund-Löwinder
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dirk-Willem van Gulik
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Paul Wouters
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Patrik Fältström
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael Richardson
- Re: China Jeffrey Haas
- Re: China Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Stefan Winter
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: China Michael Richardson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Toerless Eckert (eckert)
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael Richardson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: A distinction along Pete's dimensions Ray Pelletier
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: China Scott Bradner
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: China Tim Chown
- Re: China Ray Pelletier
- Re: China Mary Barnes
- Re: SV: Concerns about Singapore Martin Rex
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: China HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore David Morris
- Re: China Ole Jacobsen
- Re: China Melinda Shore
- Re: China Ole Jacobsen
- Re: China Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael Richardson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John G. Scudder
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Follow-ups: Concerns about Singapore Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Harish Pillay
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Harish Pillay
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Harish Pillay
- Re: China JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: China Ray Pelletier
- Re: China Stewart Bryant
- Re: China Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore joel jaeggli
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael StJohns
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Patrik Fältström
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Warren Kumari
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore nalini.elkins
- Re: Concerns about Singapore chopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael StJohns
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael StJohns
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Jared Mauch
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places John Levine
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael StJohns
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Robert Withers
- Re: Concerns about Singapore chopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Vinayak Hegde
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- RE: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Hutton, Andrew
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Stephen Farrell
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- Virtual Meetings John Leslie
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Stewart Bryant
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: Concerns about Singapore chopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Richard Shockey
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Jared Mauch
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Rich Kulawiec
- 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concerns ab… Stephen Farrell
- Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Singapo… chopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… David Farmer
- Meetecho was Re: Concerns about Singapore lloyd.wood
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore George Michaelson
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Stephen Farrell
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Mark Andrews
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Miles Fidelman
- Re: Meetecho was Re: Concerns about Singapore Jared Mauch
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Harald Alvestrand
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Tim Chown
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Tim Chown
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… chopps
- Re: Meetecho was Re: Concerns about Singapore Mikael Abrahamsson
- Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singapore) Tim Chown
- Re: Meetecho was Re: Concerns about Singapore Tim Chown
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Loa Andersson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Loa Andersson
- Re: Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singap… Ted Lemon
- Re: Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singap… Alia Atlas
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… chopps
- Re: Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singap… Tim Chown
- Re: Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singap… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Mary Barnes
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Christian Hopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Theodore V Faber
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dhruv Dhody
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Melinda Shore
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Theodore V Faber
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Miles Fidelman
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Theodore V Faber
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Melinda Shore
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… chopps
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… chopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Melinda Shore
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Stewart Bryant
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Andy Bierman
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places John R Levine
- UK blacklist (Re: Concerns about Singapore and ot… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: UK blacklist (Re: Concerns about Singapore an… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Alia Atlas
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: UK blacklist (Re: Concerns about Singapore an… Tim Chown
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places Tony Finch
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places tom p.
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Yoav Nir
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Loa Andersson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Jeffrey Haas
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Theodore V Faber
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Brian E Carpenter