Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should the IETF respond?
Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> Mon, 30 January 2017 20:02 UTC
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From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 15:02:09 -0500
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Subject: Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should the IETF respond?
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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On Sun, Jan 29, 2017 at 11:14 PM, Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > On 30/01/2017 16:49, Jeffrey Altman wrote: > ... > > The IETF is an international organization whose members... > > Not actually. The IETF is not an international organization > (I know, because I used to work for one) and it doesn't have members. > Legally, it's unclear that it's an organization at all, or in which > country it might be based. > > I also suspect that for some days or weeks, getting a straight answer > about the impact on IETF98 attendees may be impossible, but I agree > that the IASA should ask. > I have worked at several international organizations, including CERN and I have also read quite a bit on law. CERN is an international treaty organization established on the same bnasis as the ITU and other intergovernmental bodies. It is an 'International organization' the same way that WalMart is a retailer. Just as there are many retailers that are smaller than Walmart, there are many international organizations that are smaller than Walmart. The World Croquet Federation is also an international organization. It is not a treaty organization. Nor does it have diplomatic status. As for the IETF not being an organization, the only opinion on the matter that would matter is the courts. And if the question ever came up in court, I can guarantee that the first question to follow the statement 'we are not an organization' would be 'then what are you'. Remember that in common law, a contract that explicitly states it isn't a contract is still a binding contract if it meets the requirements. The fiction that the IETF is not an organization would not last five minutes. Nor are its arrangements particularly complex. The only real impact of not incorporating IETF as a separate organization subordinate to ISOC is that ISOC is not insulated from any litigation against IETF. The aspect of the current situation that I think people should focus on is that the primary design goal of the current arrangements was to prevent capture of the IETF process by what were considered to be hostile foreign powers. What appears to have been overlooked is the possibility of attack by hostile domestic powers.
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- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Hosnieh Rafiee
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Melinda Shore
- Re: If [removed] are blocked by the [removed], sh… S Moonesamy
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Clint Chaplin
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Emily Shepherd
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Adam Roach
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Paul Wouters
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Melinda Shore
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… nalini.elkins
- Re: If [removed] are blocked by the [removed], sh… S Moonesamy
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… John Leslie
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Jari Arkko
- Re: If categories of people are blocked by the U.… Stephen Farrell
- Re: If categories of people are blocked by the U.… Dave Crocker
- Re: If categories of people are blocked by the U.… George Michaelson
- Re: If categories of people are blocked by the U.… Melinda Shore
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Jeffrey Altman
- Re: If categories of people are blocked by the U.… nalini.elkins
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Roni Even
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Melinda Shore
- Re: If categories of people are blocked by the U.… John C Klensin
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Randy Bush
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Naeem Khademi
- Re: If categories of people are blocked by the U.… Naeem Khademi
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Leif Johansson
- Re: If categories of people are blocked by the U.… Leif Johansson
- Re: If categories of people are blocked by the U.… Stewart Bryant
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Dave Cridland
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Leif Johansson
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Christer Holmberg
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Niels ten Oever
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: If categories of people are blocked by the U.… David Farmer
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… nalini.elkins
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Walid AL-SAQAF
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Randy Bush
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Niels ten Oever
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Melinda Shore
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Michael StJohns
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Alia Atlas
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… John C Klensin
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Melinda Shore
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Christian de Larrinaga
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Saifi Khan
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Paul Wouters
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Jari Arkko
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Jari Arkko
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Emily Shepherd
- Re: If categories of people are blocked by the U.… Dan Harkins
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Emily Shepherd
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: If categories of people are blocked by the U.… Randy Bush
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Alejandro Acosta
- Re: If categories of people are blocked by the U.… Dan Harkins
- Re: If categories of people are blocked by the U.… Randy Bush
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Arturo Servin
- Re: If categories of people are blocked by the U.… Dan Harkins
- Re: If categories of people are blocked by the U.… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Jari Arkko
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Naeem Khademi
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Jari Arkko
- Re: If categories of people are blocked by the U.… S Moonesamy
- Re: If categories of people are blocked by the U.… Stephen Farrell
- Re: If categories of people are blocked by the U.… Tim Chown
- Re: If categories of people are blocked by the U.… Jari Arkko
- Re: If categories of people are blocked by the U.… nalini.elkins
- Re: If Muslims are blocked by the U.S., should th… Bless, Roland (TM)