Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin of a bunch of SMALL community lists
Hector Santos <hsantos@isdg.net> Sat, 19 April 2014 19:17 UTC
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Message-ID: <5352CBBE.3000400@isdg.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2014 15:17:18 -0400
From: Hector Santos <hsantos@isdg.net>
Organization: Santronics Software, Inc.
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To: ned+ietf@mauve.mrochek.com, John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
Subject: Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin of a bunch of SMALL community lists
References: <53499A5E.9020805@meetinghouse.net> <5349A261.9040500@dcrocker.net> <5349AE35.2000908@meetinghouse.net> <5349BCDA.7080701@gmail.com> <01P6L9JZF5SC00004W@mauve.mrochek.com> <CAL0qLwZr=wVX6eD+yGVOaxkSy5fJbuAErTshOG+2BywUvkDfAA@mail.gmail.com> <01P6QCMYYMJ000004W@mauve.mrochek.com> <6EF4DECC078B08C89F163155@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <01P6QVVGQA4W00004W@mauve.mrochek.com> <5350A9FB.9010307@dougbarton.us> <01P6S93XQ9TI00004W@mauve.mrochek.com> <5351A89D.7000700@dougbarton.us> <01P6STS0F6I600004X@mauve.mrochek.com> <5351CCBC.4070901@meetinghouse.net> <01P6TOCIJM0W00004W@mauve.mrochek.com> <56CF13B8250F8BE24F6F10CC@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <01P6TTN1ILCQ00004W@mauve.mrochek.com>
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On 4/19/2014 1:08 PM, ned+ietf@mauve.mrochek.com wrote: > >> I agree, but I also think there is another element of the >> situation that got us here, and that has led us close to other >> problems in the past. When the RFC Editor is asked to publish a >> non-WG document (i.e., either an individual submission through >> the IETF stream or as an independent submission) that could be >> construed as some sort of standard (whether actually standards >> track or not) or approval of an IANA parameter registration is >> on the basis of expert review, there as a potential for the >> appearance of conflicts of interest. Those conflicts need not >> be of the traditional legal or financial variety. They can >> occur (or be perceived to occur) when someone's institutional or >> organizational relationships outside the IETF might lead people >> to suspect that review and decision-making might not be as >> careful, unbiased, or primarily reflective of the interest of >> the IETF or the broader Internet community as we would like it >> to assume it always is. For situations where troublesome >> relationships exist or might be inferred (even by those >> suffering from mild paranoid), we need to get much more careful >> about disclosure of the relationships involved. > > Good point, and I agree. > > These waters are going to be difficult to nagivate, but I don't see any > alternative. > Maybe I should of followed with my gut instinct and followed through with my appeal a few years back when this whole situation we have today was the crux of the main philosophical debates of TRUST vs POLICY DKIM framework and a deemphasis of policy and lost of a standard track WG ADSP policy proposal was going down the drain with conflictive trust interest dominating the direction of DKIM. But with seeing the WG chairs and ADs interest also being in conflict as well, including one AD recusing himself from my initial appeal interest AD/chairs contact, I knew it was time to give up. In a chat with Eric, who lead the early DKIM policy framework work, when Levine's poison pill ADSP hijacked the policy work, he said it was over as far as an IETF standard work item. It will have to be revisited from outside the IETF with some trade group. DMARC is a result. In that vain, I am partially the blame for backing off. How much talking can you do? At this point, now I am being excommunicated. It wasn't fun. Its not like the chairs and the Ads were not aware of the concerns. But I guess I didn't have enough influence. I didn't attend meetings. I didn't have get to know the folks or them me. But I knew this was going to be a major problem when the IETF was now abandoning ADSP for the same reasons you are seeing now with DMARC. Essentially both lacked 3rd party semantics. So its somewhat surreal that DMARC would be now marketed by the IETF when the same ADSP problem did not get addressed. It can't be made any more simpler than that. Overall, the technical issues were obvious. But there was two basic attitudes that was hard to overcome and I think still needs to be overcome: 1) A mindset that REJECTION is bad. Accept all mail and let users decide was the prevailing mindset. It was a SYSTEM wide vs USER filtering design issue. As a developer, it means BOTH options would be available for the operators to work with. But overall, the ideas of deterministic system wide rejection was too little too much for many of the IETF mail vets. 2) The 3rd party Trust/Reputation Market potential was too great to allow self-signing policy based system marginalized this trust market potential. New ventures had started by the leads of the DKIM project. Again, brought up but what were you going to do. For me, lead the way, trust and policy do co-exist and we would be better for it, if others vendors refused to see that. But no, POLICY had to go! there was no compromising whatsoever. Anyway, I'm somewhat tired of it. Much development time was put into DKIM, ADSP, ATPS over the 9+. If the attitudes don't change now that DMARC is here, well, I don't see any hope with this issue unless fresh new synergism and policy support advocates folks get involved. We got the usual typical relatively few people that appear to be considered the main leads with these IETF mail related projects and that has to improve or in this case, finally change a few key folks position on DKIM + POLICY and help lead the way with 3rd party policy support that is workable, acceptable for all. If DMARC is the going to be the "method," the "language" then it can be fine tuned with IETF based extensions that the silly DMARC.ORG folks, whoever they are, can not stop from happening in the same way we somewhat tried to keep ADSP alive with the ATPS extension. If thats a problem, then how about this> I proposed ADSP to be remove from Historic status, and reestablished as a Proposed Standard. Why does this make sense? Well, there are systems that support ADSP, there is APIs, there is running code, and its still too early with DMARC to completely eliminate ADSP. Since its not perfect, a competing ADSP may actually get the DMARC.ORG to be more agreeable with IETF related concerns. -- HLS
- DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin of a … Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dave Crocker
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Michael Richardson
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Hector Santos
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Mark Andrews
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Hector Santos
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Douglas Otis
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dave Crocker
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Andrew G. Malis
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… John Levine
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dick Franks
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dick Franks
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re[2]: DMARC and yahoo mohammed serrhini
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Hector Santos
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dick Franks
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dave Crocker
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Doug Royer
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Warren Kumari
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Murray S. Kucherawy
- RE: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Theodore Ts'o
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dick Franks
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Rolf E. Sonneveld
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dave Crocker
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dave Cridland
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dick Franks
- What I've been wondering about the DMARC problem Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Doug Barton
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Doug Royer
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Miles Fidelman
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Ted Lemon
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Scott Kitterman
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Theodore Ts'o
- What I've been wondering about the DMARC problem Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Sabahattin Gucukoglu
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Seth Johnson
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Seth Johnson
- RE: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… l.wood
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Douglas Otis
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Seth Johnson
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Dave Crocker
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Hector Santos
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Miles Fidelman
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Seth Johnson
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Miles Fidelman
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Paul Ferguson
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Miles Fidelman
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Hector Santos
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Miles Fidelman
- RE: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Hector Santos
- RE: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Doug Royer
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Theodore Ts'o
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Michael Richardson
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Theodore Ts'o
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Sabahattin Gucukoglu
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Stephen Farrell
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Hector Santos
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Randy Bush
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Yoav Nir
- RE: DMARC and yahoo MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Theodore Ts'o
- RE: DMARC and yahoo MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Jim Fenton
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Miles Fidelman
- RE: DMARC and yahoo l.wood
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Douglas Otis
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… John C Klensin
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Sabahattin Gucukoglu
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… ned+ietf
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Hector Santos
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… John Levine
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Martin Rex
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Doug Barton
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… John Levine
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Sabahattin Gucukoglu
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Sabahattin Gucukoglu
- RE: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- RE: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Doug Barton
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Randy Bush
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… John C Klensin
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Hector Santos
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… John C Klensin
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Pete Resnick
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Jeffrey Altman
- Re: DMARC and yahoo John Levine
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Hector Santos
- Re: DMARC and yahoo John C Klensin
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Brian E Carpenter
- One size doesn't fit all [Re: DMARC ....] Brian E Carpenter
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dave Crocker
- Somebody always claims something (was Re: DMARC f… Dave Crocker
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Doug Barton
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Hector Santos
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Theodore Ts'o
- RE: DMARC and yahoo Christian Huitema
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Yoav Nir
- Re: DMARC and yahoo John Levine
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Dave Crocker
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Doug Royer
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Dave Crocker
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Douglas Otis
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… John Levine
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Rolf E. Sonneveld
- Re: What I've been wondering about the DMARC prob… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC and yahoo Douglas Otis
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Doug Barton
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Martin Rex
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Doug Barton
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Martin Rex
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Scott Kitterman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Douglas Otis
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Scott Kitterman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Martin Rex
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… John R Levine
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Ted Lemon
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… ned+ietf
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Dave Crocker
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Martin Rex
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Douglas Otis
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Hector Santos
- The IETF environment (was: Re: DMARC from the per… ned+ietf
- Re: The IETF environment Dave Crocker
- RE: The IETF environment Adrian Farrel
- Re: The IETF environment Miles Fidelman
- Re: The IETF environment Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Miles Fidelman
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: The IETF environment Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: The IETF environment Dale R. Worley
- Re: The IETF environment Brian E Carpenter
- Re: The IETF environment Dave Crocker
- Re: The IETF environment Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: DMARC from the perspective of the listadmin o… Hector Santos
- Re: The IETF environment S Moonesamy
- Re: The IETF environment Dave Crocker
- Re: The IETF environment Miles Fidelman
- RE: The IETF environment Christian Huitema
- Re: The IETF environment S Moonesamy
- Re: The IETF environment Miles Fidelman
- Workshop effects [Re: The IETF environment] Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Workshop effects [Re: The IETF environment] Abdussalam Baryun