Re: Quic: the elephant in the room

Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> Sun, 11 April 2021 16:47 UTC

Return-Path: <nico@cryptonector.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29AF33A1476 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 09:47:47 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.119
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G1BwjAB5OVZQ for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 09:47:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bird.elm.relay.mailchannels.net (bird.elm.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.212.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC9073A146F for <ietf@ietf.org>; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 09:47:19 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com
Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B44D3623B4; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 16:47:18 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a74.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-18-66.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.18.66]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 1B5AF362297; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 16:47:17 +0000 (UTC)
X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com
Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a74.g.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 100.96.18.66 (trex/6.1.1); Sun, 11 Apr 2021 16:47:18 +0000
X-MC-Relay: Neutral
X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com
X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost
X-Inform-Lyrical: 5f0c94ad6b02d147_1618159638377_4175488945
X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1618159638377:3912399453
X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1618159638377
Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a74.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a74.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFCA28306A; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 09:47:16 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=gDkIVTNADZCqH3 q5NJnrJBPp3kA=; b=j6lq8yhZ4QCG35GX0a2UNNTkEaLL+7/PoZFmNO5nMwSNmE ROTF3C6ql0lcqPJJC6NXmqdkeowZLAmibdeNZm3LJpozebClTlAADpJntFgDJV0D PpRKbrTRkcb9oPO3uvQGDcLxhzLYyq3WM8+K5H+KlUB2vO+EqukX3l1t0a9PQ=
Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a74.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 95B597E790; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 09:47:13 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 11:47:10 -0500
X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a74
From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
To: Ben Laurie <benl@google.com>
Cc: Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com>, IETF Discussion List <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Quic: the elephant in the room
Message-ID: <20210411164709.GK9612@localhost>
References: <3b25c77d-e721-e86d-6c34-a90039aab0e2@mtcc.com> <CAMm+Lwhi8xwFgZJL7jod2g4urZt_f+dm0tNi+3y1osqOfch2mQ@mail.gmail.com> <3593a01f-73f4-7d03-a85b-dff64a8b070e@mtcc.com> <CABrd9STZXonBDvWB7Z36H2mD20Juubc01TUmEvpfWkvJggQVOQ@mail.gmail.com> <20210410175712.GF9612@localhost> <926C5F27-E011-4809-88DB-DBC9A8976D01@dukhovni.org> <20210410195048.GG9612@localhost> <bfdceabb-143b-a0ab-3041-05888e8f39f2@mtcc.com> <20210410203934.GH9612@localhost> <CABrd9SQzf=RO743qYOVz3NOHQ=G0d8aWuvOsKa8VOsniu37Hhw@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <CABrd9SQzf=RO743qYOVz3NOHQ=G0d8aWuvOsKa8VOsniu37Hhw@mail.gmail.com>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/aT8yW_e9qO8UssdmwIv1sbj6AwI>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 16:47:47 -0000

On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 03:39:56PM +0100, Ben Laurie wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 at 21:40, Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 12:59:34PM -0700, Michael Thomas wrote:
> > > Let me ask a pointed question: if we used DANE+DNSSec do we have
> > > confidence in the security of the solution? I think we'd have to
> > > have a lot of confidence in both that they are really ready for
> > > prime time.
> >
> > I do, for the reasons I gave.  It can't be worse than WebPKI, that's
> > for sure.
> 
> It is not for sure, because DNS has no transparency requirements.

It is for sure for the reasons I gave in other replies.  And CT can be
added.