Re: Barely literate minutes

Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net> Sat, 01 December 2012 19:23 UTC

Return-Path: <dhc@dcrocker.net>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB5821F8D0C for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 1 Dec 2012 11:23:09 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -6.599
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K5bGEipUxMCg for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 1 Dec 2012 11:23:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DE1621F8D0B for <ietf@ietf.org>; Sat, 1 Dec 2012 11:23:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [192.168.1.9] (adsl-67-127-190-125.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.127.190.125]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qB1JN5Ei003936 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 1 Dec 2012 11:23:08 -0800
Message-ID: <50BA5912.4010701@dcrocker.net>
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2012 11:22:58 -0800
From: Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net>
Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
Subject: Re: Barely literate minutes
References: <CAC4RtVCogYS4tmY1LLi0C-E+B+di2_wTD0N-=AZrVR7-A8Mz+A@mail.gmail.com> <50B5C839.4060909@gmail.com> <59924CD37D50616BA8EB8EF7@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20121128023905.0afdcde0@resistor.net> <50B683C4.2030503@stpeter.im> <50B68612.7080107@dcrocker.net> <50B693ED.7000609@stpeter.im> <50B696B0.30904@qti.qualcomm.com> <m2lidl5ntp.wl%randy@psg.com> <BB22CC86-F9B8-4727-BCA3-F617221944F2@gmail.com> <50B78102.1020705@dcrocker.net> <50BA16C0.5060401@network-heretics.com>
In-Reply-To: <50BA16C0.5060401@network-heretics.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Sat, 01 Dec 2012 11:23:08 -0800 (PST)
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2012 19:23:09 -0000

On 12/1/2012 6:40 AM, Keith Moore wrote:
> On 11/29/2012 10:36 AM, Dave Crocker wrote:
>> F2f meetings are explicitly managed, with significant control of the
>> room.  Mailing list exchanges are typically not managed at all.
>>
>> Given the difference, it's not surprising that one proves more
>> productive than the other.
>
> Please don't confuse "management" with "encouraging productivity". In
> Atlanta I witnessed several f2f WG meetings that were explicitly
> managed, and completely unproductive.
>
> (Hint: anytime the vast majority of a f2f meeting is devoted to
> presentations, it's almost certainly useless.  Even if there were
> occasions when participants were asked to hum.)


Please don't use individual exemplars to try to prove a general case.

The thread contained an assertion of /generally/ better exchanges f2f. 
I suggested some contributing factors in support of the claimed general 
case.

Many email exchanges go extremely well.  Many f2f go extremely poorly.

human behavior.  complicated.

group behavior.  more complicated.

belief is simplistic causes or outcomes would be silly.

d/

-- 
  Dave Crocker
  Brandenburg InternetWorking
  bbiw.net