Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary
Brian Dickson <briand@ca.afilias.info> Wed, 19 December 2007 21:49 UTC
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From: Brian Dickson <briand@ca.afilias.info>
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Cc: ietf@ietf.org, iaoc@ietf.org, 'John C Klensin' <john-ietf@jck.com>, 'IETF Chair' <chair@ietf.org>, dcrocker@bbiw.net, 'Pete Resnick' <presnick@qualcomm.com>, 'Sam Hartman' <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>, iesg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary
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Tony Hain wrote: > Sam, > > While I understand the virtue in behave-compatible nats, how realistic is it > to believe that any service provider is going to allow a consumer to > directly signal their infrastructure? This assumption was the failing of > RSVP as an endpoint qos tool. > > (Here's the problem with taking one result, and attempting to apply it to another problem space: RSVP was necessarily an in-band protocol, and tied intrinsically to the local provider's network.) There is *nothing* in IPv6->IPv4 that is *strictly* tied to the provider of IPv6 services. It may be the case that ISPs try to "scare" their customers into believing otherwise, but that is not a technical issue. So, while the "third party" problem is a concern where the third party has a de-facto monopoly, the counter-argument under the IPv6 access model exists. If you can get anywhere on the IPv6 Internet, you can get to *any* third-party IPv6->IPv4 gateway, limited only by the ability to reach & interest of the third party, e.g. someone offering it as a service. Since IPv6 access is no-NAT to/from the IPv6 DFZ, unlike much of IPv4, there is a level playing field for network-facing services, such as IPv6->IPv4 access, and IPv6-oriented ALGs. Mail relaying, for instance, via MX-IPv4 to SMTP-IPv6. The rest of your argument falls off the rails, as soon as the "third party" changes from "_the_" third party, to "_a_" third party. In an IPv6 world, ISPs can once again be differentiated to include ISPs-lite, Internet Access Providers. I'd suggest that for the experiment planned for IETF-71, that interested folks set up *competing* IPv6->IPv4 services, kind of like a mock marketplace, and including mock advertising on a special (IPv6-only) web site for just this purpose. Then the results would have multiple dimensions, comparative results much like an actual ba*k o*f. Brian Dickson > There is lots of noise about ISPs just putting up massive nat farms to push > their customers out, but when it comes right down to it there is no way that > will work for anything but the most trivial client apps. All of the > assumptions about nat working today are built around local control of the > mappings. When that mapping function has to move to a third party, all bets > are off. Worse, when that third party has strong disincentives which keep > them from allowing their customers to punch holes, there is no chance that > apps will work. ISPs are disincented by even the simple issue of > after-the-fact diagnostics being more complicated by dynamic mappings, let > alone the problem of conflict resolution between customers. > > Behave compatible nats are a nice concept for enterprises with multiple > levels of internal nat, but third-party trust issues will kill any real > deployment of a signaling based approach. > > Tony > >
_______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Morris
- IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary IETF Chair
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joao Damas
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Pekka Savola
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Paul Hoffman
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Edward Lewis
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bill Manning
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bill Manning
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Christian Huitema
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Francis Dupont
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mohsen Souissi
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stewart Bryant
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Edward Lewis
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Marshall Eubanks
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Jaap Akkerhuis
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Lixia Zhang
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Yaakov Stein
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ole Jacobsen
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Paul Hoffman
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bob Braden
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bob Braden
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ole Jacobsen
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Aki Niemi
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bob Braden
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Paul Hoffman
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Avri Doria
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bill Manning
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary JW Atwood
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Norbert Bollow
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Sam Hartman
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ralph Droms
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Russ Housley
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mehmet Ersue
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Fred Baker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- IETF interoperability testing Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ralph Droms
- Re: IETF interoperability testing Randy Presuhn
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IETF interoperability testing Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ned Freed
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Yaakov Stein
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Eliot Lear
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Norbert Bollow
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Norbert Bollow
- Incentives for using v6 (was Re: IPv4 Outage Plan… Norbert Bollow
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Iljitsch van Beijnum
- IPv6 deployment strategy RE: Incentives for using… Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Eric Rescorla
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Opportunity Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 P… Leslie Daigle
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephen Farrell
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Douglas Otis
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephen Farrell
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Spencer Dawkins
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary John C Klensin
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Pete Resnick
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: Opportunity Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF … Jari Arkko
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Jari Arkko
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Theodore Tso
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary John C Klensin
- eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Bill Manning
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Kessens
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Frank Ellermann
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Bill Manning
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Aki Niemi
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Theodore Tso
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mark Andrews
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Richard Shockey
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Theodore Tso
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Mark Andrews
- Re: IETF interoperability testing Brian E Carpenter
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Theodore Tso
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Franck Martin
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Bill Manning
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Cullen Jennings
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Tony Finch
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Iljitsch van Beijnum
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary michael.dillon
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Theodore Tso
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Theodore Tso
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Eric Rescorla
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Kessens
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outag… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Eric Rescorla
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Kessens
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage David Conrad
- Let's look at it from an IETF newbie's perspectiv… Dan York
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Iljitsch van Beijnum
- RE: Let's look at it from an IETF newbie's perspe… Ed Juskevicius
- Re: Let's look at it from an IETF newbie's perspe… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Let's look at it from an IETF newbie's perspe… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Let's look at it from an IETF newbie's perspe… Matt Mathis
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Tony Hain
- Re: Opportunity Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF … Elwyn Davies
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Jari Arkko
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Cullen Jennings
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Sam Hartman
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Tony Hain
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Fred Baker
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Tony Hain
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Jari Arkko
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Tony Hain
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Sam Hartman
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Sam Hartman
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Brian Dickson
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Tony Hain
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Sam Hartman
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Fred Baker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Franck Martin
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Fred Baker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Franck Martin
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Martin Stiemerling
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Theodore Tso
- Re: eating our own dogfood... Frank Ellermann
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Philip Matthews
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Eric Rescorla
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Kessens
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Theodore Tso
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Morris
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Kessens
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Christian Huitema
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Morris
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Paul Hoffman
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Morris
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mark Andrews
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Paul Hoffman
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Franck Martin
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Conrad
- Re: Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outag… TS Glassey
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary IETF Chair
- Re: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Pl… rpelletier
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary John C Klensin
- Re: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Pl… Ray Pelletier
- Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outage Pl… Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary todd glassey
- Re: Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outag… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outag… Chris Lonvick
- Re: Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outag… Dave Crocker
- Re: [IAOC] Re: Let's look at it from an IETF newb… Marshall Eubanks