Re: HTML for email
Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> Tue, 02 March 2021 17:07 UTC
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From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2021 12:07:10 -0500
Message-ID: <CAMm+LwgGBMND_JATrhFz_g2+UB2RYFnjsjMBy5MSicn6hZhBsw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: HTML for email
To: tom petch <daedulus@btconnect.com>
Cc: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>, IETF Discussion Mailing List <ietf@ietf.org>
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On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 5:00 AM tom petch <daedulus@btconnect.com> wrote: > On 01/03/2021 14:22, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > > Yes HTML is a disaster for email. But so is plaintext wrapped at 66 > > characters by the server because people didn't know better. > > > > The reasons HTML is a disaster are > > > > 1) There is no standard for HTML in email. > > 2) HTML has been turned into a presentation format. > > 3) Email messages used annotations for a decade before HTML which doesn't > > support them > > 4) The SMTP email infrastructure does not provide a viable means of > knowing > > what formats are accepted by a recipient so there is no way to fix this. > > > > One painful side effect of 1 and 2 is that messages come with embedded > font > > size specifiers which is beyond stupid. The sender has no idea what > device > > I am reading something on. But Gmail will happily chose font size > settings > > that are frequently stupid. I have no control over that as a user. > > Going back to the original, having ranted about my number one hate, the > loss of privacy to anyone else on the list ..... > > The points you make are all good, and good reason why IETF mailing lists > should silently discard text/html attachments. > No it shouldn't. The reason HTML email is so crappy is precisely because people here failed to realize why the other 3 billion Internet users wanted it. And you are still making that mistake. Only a very very small fraction of the world is fond of VT100 console output. It is a significant fraction of IETF but its still a minority. HTML email is bad because nobody in the places which might have had influence wanted to make it really good. SMTP has had a good run. So has the telephone system. But they are both long past their prime and need to go the way of the fax machine. I still have two fax machines in the house, its a function of the printer. But neither has been hooked up in five years now. The replacement is quite feasible. Here is how I plan to go about it. 1) Open callsign registry. Alice creates a public key pair, registers the public part in the callsign registry claiming the name @alice and specifying her current service provider where people can reach her. Traditional RFC822 email addresses are owned by the domain name owner. Alice doesn't own alice@example.com and she can't take it with her. The registry itself doesn't provide any services. It doesn't even provide query lookup, only zone transfer. This is so we can make the names really really cheap. 2) Contact catalog Alice exchanges her contact information with friends. This is a kimono affair, she probably doesn't put her email address or her telephone in her public contact. But she has a contact specifying her SMTP, OpenPGP, S/MIME etc. And unlike traditional contact formats that aren't backed by PKI/TKI, this one automatically updates. 3) TKI Threshold key infrastructure allows Alice to manage her private keys without knowing she is doing it. I am not going to be replacing SMTP on day one. Mesh messaging is deliberately limited to 32KB messages. That might well be reduced to 8K before launch. But consider this, I am providing an open system that allows banks, stockbrokers, healthcare providers to reach their customer and send them secure messages that comply with HIPPA, GDPR etc. It is a system that allows them the security of their private infrastructures and the ubiquity of SMTP. The Mesh is designed to allow these people to offload their costs. Running their proprietary messaging systems is expensive and not really that good for the customer. An open system serves them much better. So just like my brokerage buys me anti-virus subscriptions, I think that a few bucks a year to give me Mesh secure messaging will work. And another thing. The Mesh is an open framework that makes it really easy for app designers to build their own stuff on top with confidentiality and integrity controls built into the core. All you need to achieve OPEN secure voice and video conferencing is to use the Mesh presence protocol to establish a WebRTC session. And one more thing, Mesh Messaging is limited to 32KB precisely so that it can be used to send TB of data at a time. The raw video of the Mesh architecture series is 4TB. I should be able to send that to my editor by mailing it to them. Not by SMTP, I am not because it is a fore and storward system. Mesh messaging limits push messages to 32KB but the message sent can be 'please pull the raw video files from https://....' So no, I don't plan to replace SMTP directly. Nor do I intend to replace the telephone. Instead, I am architecting an open system that is capable of growing by filling completely different needs and just happens to make them unnecessary. The point when I have won is when you can buy cheap Mesh 'phones' for the home which are a combo of Mesh video, Mesh voice, Mesh messaging and they are also the remote control for your TV and smart home. Oh and yes, I will be making a subset of HTML the basis for the messaging part.
- Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Fernando Gont
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- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiveness … Keith Moore
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Carsten Bormann
- RE: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
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- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
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- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Mary Barnes
- Re: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiven… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Tim Bray
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Christian Huitema
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- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Michael Richardson
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- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Phillip Hallam-Baker
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- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
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- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
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- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Bron Gondwana
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- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Jen Linkova
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- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
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- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- RE: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
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- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
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- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Marc Petit-Huguenin
- document writing/editing tools used by IETF Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Brian E Carpenter
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- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Brian E Carpenter
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- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
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- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Keith Moore
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
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- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Lars Eggert
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- How to tell people... Was: We appear to still be … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Keith Moore
- Re: How to tell people... Was: We appear to still… Keith Moore
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- RE: document writing/editing tools used by IETF STARK, BARBARA H
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- Re: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiven… Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
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- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Keith Moore
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
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- Re: How to tell people... Was: We appear to still… Michael Richardson
- Re: How to tell people... Was: We appear to still… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF John Levine
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Keith Moore
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Michael Richardson
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Christian Huitema
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… John Wroclawski
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF John Levine
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Bron Gondwana
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Bron Gondwana
- HTML for email (was: Re: document writing/editing… Keith Moore
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: HTML for email (was: Re: document writing/edi… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Warren Parad
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Jeff Craig
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: HTML for email tom petch
- RE: HTML for email Larry Masinter
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Salz, Rich
- RE: document writing/editing tools used by IETF STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: HTML for email Keith Moore
- Re: HTML for email Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: HTML for email (was: Re: document writing/edi… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: HTML for email Nico Williams
- Re: HTML for email Nico Williams
- Re: HTML for email Nico Williams
- Re: HTML for email Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: HTML for email Keith Moore
- Re: HTML for email Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: HTML for email Bron Gondwana
- Re: HTML for email John Levine
- RE: HTML for email Larry Masinter
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- Re: HTML for email tom petch
- Re: HTML for email tom petch
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- Re: HTML for email Nick Hilliard
- Re: HTML for email Keith Moore
- Re: HTML for email ned+ietf
- Re: HTML for email tom petch
- Re: HTML for email Nick Hilliard
- Re: HTML for email Nico Williams
- Re: HTML for email tom petch
- Re: HTML for email Nico Williams
- Re: HTML for email Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: HTML for email Keith Moore
- RE: HTML for email Larry Masinter
- Re: HTML for email Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: HTML for email Keith Moore
- Re: HTML for email Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: HTML for email Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Wes Hardaker