Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF

Dominique Lazanski <dml@lastpresslabel.com> Tue, 23 February 2021 08:50 UTC

Return-Path: <dml@lastpresslabel.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 468A33A0E34 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:50:14 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lastpresslabel-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2NHOltcLfK_v for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:50:10 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-lj1-x236.google.com (mail-lj1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F21133A28B2 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:50:09 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-lj1-x236.google.com with SMTP id v17so1037738ljj.9 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:50:09 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lastpresslabel-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=WJHpUoP20Emfsn7RmHLV6CQq9AzQGefhZekvDsEVJKg=; b=IenIPCype7fB+FwKMKvd8HOcUnSCJerkMKw/mpnFq+Ej+spFdUZhIM8UzPS24lwlb+ jEdZlE3S3JZnE0CGO2FxMFbkmmnuyKSVoGIoufQt7b8gUo/P28QX4hBdHbiD2DqVy5mV jLW/mpMFHSnBSV8JvEJUj724HHTluQ1G2duPsx6THx/MLg4kH1QBgKdPIBYn0Y5sx1Em eAjPs2VwkZth7rTYTdUrlyMLUf1UCJ+aJzW9ZCUnKV5zR3dod5cHZdLkFggkXuAnHDmk VqOcHj+FvNdPq07xepE4hZalKB4tue2yLx58FKcEJXnrANKiBCVDV/VT+m456RI13LgS ezhg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=WJHpUoP20Emfsn7RmHLV6CQq9AzQGefhZekvDsEVJKg=; b=D/oWrTqE7atpO5BOaQY8c5E/fWXMcCYCO/hqowx7VGItGlcU757FYfEgGNwjDnoIPF v/fpLkTcsIg1h3XNcefQ2DoQrhQDswuwtCd4QSITKtF0V4btF39OPXh5I/3k/L+jys81 PLSEpdpA+ZAX7z7RjVPM4LOG6rLy+lf+OHlxCDxC4kuQt8ZJZ5haAgkHr1x8Ao+1jOUd +03/c/mQ71/FjuYJCb8MBRywIpDk0nMR36dz+rivZhfhl/2oGIfVGNguc4Ufdx7Ly4tu fyMTR8EE0AKFJ91FXHATwq+a5zWATUTFwwJVaLwLuBvdWJEv+aJmuth5ABQkpfqQIF4m 9mYw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533IC2xbvh7jdQJmv0qjBHgPDSiHQGDVcysEI6UpOltwB7T7sYP/ 6U1nJ+EyM6MDmQWbpUvgekROnA==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxFMrkQ6t5Ktsg8Gp7DzxC8pbQBHW58ukNgd83Gnz++ImayRQZh6FiWXfTYCCgxHlqJ0BD5Hg==
X-Received: by 2002:a2e:90cf:: with SMTP id o15mr5449400ljg.218.1614070207780; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:50:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [10.6.3.49] ([37.120.203.180]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i8sm1880561lfe.158.2021.02.23.00.50.06 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:50:07 -0800 (PST)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\))
Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF
From: Dominique Lazanski <dml@lastpresslabel.com>
In-Reply-To: <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 09:50:06 +0100
Cc: Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmailteam.com>, ietf@ietf.org, gendispatch@ietf.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <79DF709C-61B9-4828-852C-76F8DFB0BAB5@lastpresslabel.com>
References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com>
To: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/cr5l8ZqspmpTwW2mX36NKv2-mO0>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:50:17 -0000


> On 23 Feb 2021, at 09:40, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello, Dominique,
> 
> On 23/2/21 05:18, Dominique Lazanski wrote:
>> I would support Bron’s experience and also say that there are several other barriers to entry that I’ve found. One is different approaches to topics than the mainstream IETF approach held by most IETF attendees. I am thinking about privacy/encryption, for example.
> 
> Could you elaborate a bit more on this one? e.g., some example (so that we can understand better what you mean)... and if you can think of anything that might be done to improve things in this respect, that would also be nice.
> 

Sure! This is purely my experience, but I have found it challenging (and hostile) to engage in controversial topics which don’t have consensus. I think encryption is the most obvious one and consolidation another. I don’t want to dwell on the issues, but would rather suggest solutions. I think it would be great to organise open sessions of an hour just on these topics focused specifically on having difficult and challenging conversations only about one topic. Obviously we have open IAB, plenary and etc, but a focused, short meeting would be one idea.

> 
>> But the other big barrier to entry is the draft upload tools. For a new person attending for the first time the tools are a relic of 1990 of thereabouts and can be confusing and difficult.
> 
> FWIW, we have already started to work on a revision of the draft (working copy at: https://github.com/fgont/diversity/blob/main/draft-gont-diversity-analysis-01.txt), and this is what we currently have in the Section 8.2 of the upcoming rev:
> 
> ---- cut here ----
> 8.2.  Difficulty in Authoring and Submitting Internet-Drafts
> 
>   There are so many formatting rules that an Internet-Draft (and
>   eventually an RFC) needs to comply to, that in practice the only
>   reasonable way create and submit an Internet-Draft is via the set of
>   tools available at: https://tools.ietf.org/ . Tools such as xml2rfc
>   are of a lot of help to produce documents that comply with the
>   Internet-Draft formatting rules -- but its error messages might
>   result cryptic to the unexperienced user.
> 
>   The number of tools has expanded so much that they probably deserve
>   their own guidelines.  And existing guidelines such as
>   [ID-Guidelines] should probably be updated with the assumption that
>   Internet-Drafts will be produced with the set of available tools.
> 
>      This means that e.g. it becomes less important to the Internet-
>      Draft author what formatting rules a document needs to comply to,
>      since the existing tools will guarantee such compliance.  On the
>      other hand, an author may benefit from guidelines on how to use
>      the set of available tools.
> ---- cut here ----
> 
> Is there anything you'd suggest adding to it?

This is great news! I will definitely go to git and add a few things.

> 
> 
>> In any case, I shall join the gendispatch group to discuss further!
> 
> Please do, but also feel free to discuss it here if you wish, too.
> 
> Thanks a lot!
> 
> Regards,
> -- 
> Fernando Gont
> SI6 Networks
> e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
> PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492
> 

Dominique