Re: Barely literate minutes

t.p. <daedulus@btconnect.com> Thu, 29 November 2012 09:39 UTC

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From: t.p. <daedulus@btconnect.com>
To: Pete Resnick <presnick@qti.qualcomm.com>
References: <CAC4RtVCogYS4tmY1LLi0C-E+B+di2_wTD0N-=AZrVR7-A8Mz+A@mail.gmail.com> <50B5C839.4060909@gmail.com> <59924CD37D50616BA8EB8EF7@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20121128023905.0afdcde0@resistor.net> <50B683C4.2030503@stpeter.im><50B68612.7080107@dcrocker.net> <50B693ED.7000609@stpeter.im> <50B696B0.30904@qti.qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: Barely literate minutes
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 09:38:15 +0000
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete Resnick" <presnick@qti.qualcomm.com>
To: "Peter Saint-Andre" <stpeter@stpeter.im>
Cc: <dcrocker@bbiw.net>et>; "IETF discussion list" <ietf@ietf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 10:56 PM
> On 11/28/12 4:45 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> > On 11/28/12 2:45 PM, Dave Crocker wrote:
> >
> >> ps. I'll repeat that I think f2f needs to be essentially irrelevant
> >> to the assessment of wg consensus, except perhaps as an efficiency
> >> hack that permits more terse exchanges on the mailing list.
> >>
> > That's a separate topic, but I tend to disagree. Why the heck even
> > have meetings? And I concur with Marc Blanchet that some WGs really
> > gel and make good progress in person but don't have great threads on
> > the mailing list.
> >
>
> It is a fact of life that some WGs only make progress face-to-face. I

Pete

I find that strange, not something I have ever seen (at least judging by
the minutes of WG meetings which I have not attended).

I see many WG which only make progress just prior to the closing of I-D
submission up to the point soon after submission reopens, but that is
not the same thing as making progress by meeting.

And I do know of two or so WG which make progress at a meeting; but they
seem to me to be WG that are too small to be a WG in the first place,
where the work is driven by less than half a dozen people who gain much
from meeting but where the breadth of experience and knowledge is
missing and where the output is then, for me, suspect.

WG of a substantial size seem to me to gain little or nothing from
meeting, as the minutes show.

Tom Petch








> think that's often a sign of a problem, but it's a fact. But if that
> happens, the chair needs to (with the help of minutes takers and other
> participants) post detailed notes of the discussion to the list and
ask
> for objections. That serves two functions: (a) It makes a record of
work
> that was done; and (b) it gives people who don't attend meetings
> (including new folks who come along) a chance to participate and voice
> their concerns. *Achievement* of consensus might have to occur f2f for
> some issues in some WGs, but it seems to me that *assessment* of
> consensus must be completely possible on the list, even if the only
> poster to the list is the chair with all of the f2f notes.
>
> pr
>
> --
> Pete Resnick<http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>
> Qualcomm Technologies, Inc. - +1 (858)651-4478
>
>