Re: Alternative Proposal for Two-Stage IETF Standardization
"Russ Housley" <housley@vigilsec.com> Thu, 11 November 2010 08:23 UTC
Return-Path: <housley@vigilsec.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 172F33A68D4 for <ietf@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 00:23:27 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -102.577
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.577 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.022, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GIqdd4tXciWB for <ietf@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 00:23:24 -0800 (PST)
Received: from odin.smetech.net (mail.smetech.net [208.254.26.82]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D5F63A69AD for <ietf@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 00:23:24 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (unknown [208.254.26.81]) by odin.smetech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EAFB9A4746; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 03:24:01 -0500 (EST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smetech.net
Received: from odin.smetech.net ([208.254.26.82]) by localhost (ronin.smetech.net [208.254.26.81]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w492XqU2UbbM; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 03:23:50 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mail.smetech.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by odin.smetech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E38209A472B; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 03:23:59 -0500 (EST)
Received: from 198.180.150.230 (SquirrelMail authenticated user housley@vigilsec.com) by mail.smetech.net with HTTP; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 03:23:59 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <1366.198.180.150.230.1289463839.squirrel@mail.smetech.net>
In-Reply-To: <4CDB918C.8090902@dcrocker.net>
References: <4CD967AD.80605@dcrocker.net> <3486.198.180.150.230.1289445298.squirrel@mail.smetech.net> <4CDB7026.5090903@dcrocker.net> <4CDB918C.8090902@dcrocker.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 03:23:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Alternative Proposal for Two-Stage IETF Standardization
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
To: dcrocker@bbiw.net
User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.8-5.el4_8.8
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Importance: Normal
Cc: IETF Discussion <ietf@ietf.org>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 08:23:27 -0000
Dave: This is a significant improvement from my perspective. We need a mechanism to implement it. The mechanism does not need to be heavy weight, and it might be as simple as some statements in a Last Call, allowing the community to support or challenge them. Russ > Folks, > > On 11/11/2010 12:25 PM, Dave CROCKER wrote: >> To establish the base: It is not possible to achieve widespread use on >> the >> Internet without having multiple components interacting. That's called >> interoperability. >> >> However, the interoperability might be among components that are clones >> of a >> single code base. >> >> So our language needs to be enhanced to cover multiple implementations. >> And as >> long as the language hood is up, we might as well put in a turbo-booster >> that >> asserts the higher octane 'interoperability' word. > > > A hallway conversation with Russ added an item that simply had not > occurred to me: > > There might be multiple implementations that rely on on undocumented > modifications of the spec. This means that an additional, interoperable > implementation cannot be made purely from the specification. > > Again, I believe the requirement for the document is "merely" to get the > wording > right. I do not believe any of us differ on the actual meaning we are > trying to > achieve. That is, I have not seen anything that indicates we have > disparity > about the intended requirement. > > Test language: (*) > > (Full) Internet Standard: > > The Internet community achieves rough consensus -- on using > the multiple, independent implementations of a specification > > and > > 3.3. [Full] Internet Standard (IS) > > This is the existing final standards status, based on attainment of > significant community acceptance, as demonstrated by use of > multiple, > independent implementations that conform to the specification. > > d/ > > ps. I just realized that the original language that Russ cited said "on > using > the running code of a specification". "Of a specification" explicitly > means > that the stuff that is running is the spec and, therefore, can't really > mean > that it's using hallway agreements. (However I think it's dandy to make > the > Section 3.3 language bullet-proofed against creative misunderstanding.) > > (*) This is just from me; it hasn't been vetted with my co-authors. > > -- > > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net >
- Alternative Proposal for Two-Stage IETF Standardi… Dave CROCKER
- Re: Alternative Proposal for Two-Stage IETF Stand… Mark Andrews
- Re: Alternative Proposal for Two-Stage IETF Stand… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Alternative Proposal for Two-Stage IETF Stand… Dave CROCKER
- Re: Alternative Proposal for Two-Stage IETF Stand… Russ Housley
- Re: Alternative Proposal for Two-Stage IETF Stand… Dave CROCKER
- Re: Alternative Proposal for Two-Stage IETF Stand… Dave CROCKER
- Re: Alternative Proposal for Two-Stage IETF Stand… Russ Housley
- Re: Alternative Proposal for Two-Stage IETF Stand… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: Alternative Proposal for Two-Stage IETF Stand… Spencer Dawkins
- Re: Alternative Proposal for Two-Stage IETF Stand… Dave CROCKER
- Re: Alternative Proposal for Two-Stage IETF Stand… Russ Housley
- Re: Alternative Proposal for Two-Stage IETF Stand… Dave CROCKER
- Re: Alternative Proposal for Two-Stage IETF Stand… Spencer Dawkins
- Re: Alternative Proposal for Two-Stage IETF Stand… Martin Rex
- Re: Alternative Proposal for Two-Stage IETF Stand… Dave CROCKER
- Re: Alternative Proposal for Two-Stage IETF Stand… Martin Rex
- Re: Alternative Proposal for Two-Stage IETF Stand… ned+ietf
- Re: Alternative Proposal for Two-Stage IETF Stand… Spencer Dawkins
- Re: Alternative Proposal for Two-Stage IETF Stand… Eric Burger