Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term)
"Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com> Tue, 06 April 2021 21:10 UTC
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Subject: Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term)
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
References: <6.2.5.6.2.20210401013907.0b3b7fe8@elandnews.com> <89383942-204e-a94e-3350-42bfb4165ba0@comcast.net> <792c4815-8c36-e5fa-9fbe-2e1cfa97239f@comcast.net> <D18D87D95723A68D8E75B6BC@PSB> <20210406152930.GR3828@localhost> <f52c46cf-03fb-6692-3a87-9b7db639f2e9@gmail.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 17:10:02 -0400
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While this (terminology) could be handled on a series-wide basis, it does not have to be. The IETF can adopt policies for conent of the IETF stream that are more restrictive than the RFC Editor. While I think getting the eventual RFC Series quasi-wg to look at this is worth-while, I do not see why that should gate the IETF looking at the quesiton. Yours, Joel On 4/6/2021 4:58 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Nico raises a point that has been in my mind: why is this an IETF issue, > since presumably it applies to all RFC streams? > > I believe that the charter is good enough as it is, but I also believe > that the IESG should consider not only whether there is consensus on the > charter text, but also the basic question whether this issue should be > handled by the IETF at all, rather than by the RFC Editor. There is a > strong case for the latter. > > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > On 07-Apr-21 03:29, Nico Williams wrote: >> On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 12:08:55AM -0400, John C Klensin wrote: >>> [...] >> >> I think this is the most helpful message yet on this topic. I'm afraid >> that my saying so might cause others to ignore it, but I hope that's not >> the case. >> >>> Despite having community consensus that the problems it intended >>> to address were important, I watched NEWTRK leave scars that >>> have not healed. Others would probably disagree, but I suggest >>> it demonstrated the willingness of the IESG to decide that its >>> experience and perspective in IETF process matters were more >>> valid and important than the consensus of the WG, so much so >>> that there was no reason to try to ascertain IETF rough >>> consensus before dismissing the WG's key results without an IETF >>> Last Call. I have no reason to believe the current IESG would, >>> or even might, do that but, to the extent to which the IESG has >>> proposed this as a WG, if it is going to be chartered as a WG, >>> it would be very desirable to design a different mechanism for >>> managing Last Calls and evaluating community consensus than the >>> same IESG. And that is probably just another argument for >>> "not as an IETF WG". >> >> There is a big difference between the IESG saying "we will not go >> forward with this work in spite of it having WG and possibly IETF >> consensus" and the IESG saying "we must go forward with this work in >> spite of it lacking consensus". The former is painful but within the >> IESG's privilege. The latter is outside the by-laws of the >> organization. The IAB would be a better body for pursuing publication >> of work that lacks IETF consensus, would it not? >> >>>>> Since the proposed charter for Term will effect more than >>>>> just the standards process (e.g. it potentially effects all >>>>> of the current and future RFC streams), it would appear this >>>>> should be handled either as an IAB activity (either >>>>> authored, or referred to a workshop), or deferred until the >>>>> RFCED group completes its work and can have this assigned as >>>>> a work item. >> >> Ah, I'm hardly the first to think the IAB is a better home for this. >> >>> I would go a bit further. Because responsibility for >>> determining the appropriateness of vocabulary in the RFC Series >>> has traditionally been the responsibility of the RFC [Series] >>> Editor (going more or less back to the beginning of Jon Postel's >>> administration and continuing through Heather's), launching this >>> effort now would likely have the effect of adding an unneeded >>> additional impediment to the RFCED group reaching consensus on >>> its core tasks and/or setting us up for additional future work >>> to harmonize the two. >> >> Yes. I would be perfectly happy and content with the RSE questioning >> the use of the terminology in question in I-Ds on the RFC-Editor queue. >> I would be perfectly happy and content with the RSE disallowing the use >> of various terminology in I-Ds on the RFC-Editor queue. >> And I've said so before. >> >> One of the many reasons to prefer this approach is that it allows the >> RSE great flexibility, which -considering how painful this process has >> been thus far- should be highly desired as new terminology controversies >> arise. >> >>>>> My first preference is to do this as an IAB Workshop report >>>>> with no BCP tag and with as dispassionate an analysis and >>>>> output language as possible. E.g. explanatory language vs >>>>> directive. >>> >>> Agreed. There is no doubt in my mind that we have language and >>> terminology problems, especially when those are considered >>> broadly and cross culturally. I think it is reasonable and >>> appropriate that we do as much as possible to educate the >>> community, and especially would-be I-D or RFC authors, about the >>> issues. That requires analysis, explanation, and guidance, not >>> directions or rules (and especially not directions or rules on >>> which we will not be able to agree and that will cause further >>> divisions in the community because of the lack of agreement. I >>> think it is also reasonable and appropriate for people who find >>> what they think is inappropriate language in a draft in a WG or >>> submitted for Last Call to raise those issues, both in the hope >>> of getting the language fixed and to facilitate education of the >>> authors. But, if there are any lessons from any of our recent >>> efforts in WGs designed to specify important aspects of the >>> standards process or from the intensity and tone of the recent >>> discussions of terminology on the IETF list, those lessons are >>> that there is no community consensus (even rough consensus) that >>> this work should be done in a way that would (or might) >>> establish specific directions for vocabulary or behavior and >>> that, absent such consensus, the results are as likely to be >>> destructive as helpful. >> >> +1 >> >> Nico >> >
- WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Document… S Moonesamy
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Lars Eggert
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Nick Hilliard
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Andrew G. Malis
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… S Moonesamy
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Michael StJohns
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Michael StJohns
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Lucy Lynch
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Adam Roach
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Lloyd W
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Adam Roach
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Michael StJohns
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… John C Klensin
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Carsten Bormann
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Nico Williams
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Jari Arkko
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Nico Williams
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Keith Moore
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Nico Williams
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Stewart Bryant
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Masataka Ohta
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Masataka Ohta
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Leif Johansson
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Sam Hartman
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Leif Johansson
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… John Scudder
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Nico Williams
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Nico Williams
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Nico Williams
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… John C Klensin
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… John C Klensin
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Jari Arkko
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Salz, Rich
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… John Levine
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Keith Moore
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… John C Klensin
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… tom petch
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Nico Williams
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… John C Klensin
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… John C Klensin
- Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Docu… Lloyd W