Re: [Slim] IETF last call for draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language (Section 5.4)

[Randall Gellens <[e-mail]>]

At 11:01 AM +0100 2/14/17, Gunnar Hellström wrote:

>  My proposal for a reworded section 5.4 is:
>
>  5.4.  Unusual language indications
>
>  It is possible to specify an unusual indication where the language
>  specified may look unexpected for the media type.
>
>  For such cases the following guidance SHALL be 
> applied for the humintlang attributes used in 
> these situations.
>
>  1.	A view of a speaking person in the video 
> stream SHALL, when it has relevance for speech 
> perception, be indicated by a Language-Tag for 
> spoken/written language with the "Zxxx" script 
> subtag to indicate that the contents is not 
> written.
>
>  2.	Text captions included in the video 
> stream SHALL be indicated by a Language-Tag for 
> spoken/written language.
>
>  3.	Any approximate representation of sign 
> language or fingerspelling in the text media 
> stream SHALL be indicated by a Language-Tag for 
> a sign language in text media.
>
>  4.	When sign language related audio from a 
> person using sign language is of importance for 
> language communication, this SHALL be indicated 
> by a Language-Tag for a sign language in audio 
> media.

[RG] As I said, I think we should avoid 
specifying this until we have deployment 
experience.


>
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  This paragraph in 5.2 should be deleted because it is a duplication.
>
>  "   Note that while signed language tags are used with a video stream to
>     indicate sign language, a spoken language tag for a video stream in
>     parallel with an audio stream with the same spoken language tag
>     indicates a request for a supplemental video stream to see the
>     speaker."

[RG] I agree and will delete the paragraph.



>
>  Regards
>
>  Gunnar
>
>  Den 2017-02-14 kl. 08:06, skrev Gunnar Hellström:
>
>>  Doug,
>>
>>  Thanks for pointing at the Zxxx script subtag for non-written content.
>>
>>  I think we can document the use of it for the 
>> view of a speaker in video media when 
>> indicated by a spoken/written language tag.
>>
>>  I have tried before to propose to use the 
>> script subtag to indicate written language, 
>> but got opposition because many languages have 
>> their main script subtag suppressed. However, 
>> the language around suppressed script subtags 
>> indicate that there are cases when the use is 
>> appropriate. We  can document that text 
>> captions in the video stream shall (or should) 
>> be indicated with a script subtag.
>>
>>  But, to keep it simple, the use of Zxxx scrit 
>> subtag on the view of a speaker should be 
>> sufficient.
>>
>>  That could conclude the unusual combinations:
>>
>>  1. Spoken/written tag in video media, can mean 
>> to see a speaking person, or to provide 
>> captions overlayed on video.
>>
>>  When the intention is to indicate overlayed 
>> captions in the video stream, the script 
>> subtag Zxxx SHALL be used.
>>
>>  Otherwise, a view of a speaking person is indicated.
>>
>>  2. Signed language tag in audio media,
>>  means audio from a person using sign language, 
>> and SHOULD only be used for rare cases when it 
>> has some relevance for language communication.
>>
>>  3. Sign language tag in text media.
>>
>>  SHALL be used for any approximate text coded 
>> representation of sign language or 
>> fingerspelling.
>>
>>  I suggest that these conclusions form the base for a redefined section 5.4.
>>
>>  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>  About my efforts to discuss modality in the 
>> language list: The list was closed when I 
>> tried to subscribe or send to it, and I did 
>> not see any response on a question I sent 
>> about how to get a discussion on the modality 
>> topic.
>>
>>  But I am happy now with your pointing out the 
>> Zxxx script. a spoken/written language with 
>> Zxxx script is quite obviously not written and 
>> not signed, so then it is spoken. Good.
>>
>>  Thanks
>>
>>  Gunnar
>>
>>
>>  Den 2017-02-14 kl. 00:10, skrev Doug Ewell:
>>
>>>  Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>>>
>>>>  But captions overlayed on video in the media stream is a used
>>>>  technology so it would be good to be able to specify it.
>>>>  That we cannot do it is again a sad effect of the language tags not
>>>>  distinguishing between spoken and written modality.
>>>>
>>>  se-Latn = Swedish written in Latin script
>>>  se-Cyrl = Swedish written in Cyrillic script
>>>  se-Maya = Swedish written in Mayan hieroglyphs
>>>
>>>  se-Zxxx = Swedish, explicitly not written
>>>
>>>  "se-Zxxx, fi-Latn" = content includes non-written Swedish plus Finnish
>>>  written in Latin script
>>>
>>>  Examples of multiple streams of content, such as video in one language
>>>  that is subtitled in another, call for multiple language tags. That is
>>>  not a shortcoming or failure of the language tag mechanism. See RFC
>>>  5646, Section 4.3.
>>>
>>>  All of this was discussed in the WG by the same parties.
>>>
>>>>  I once had an ambition to try to specify a notation for that to be
>>>>  added to BCP 47, but did not succeed to get any real discussion going
>>>>  on the topic.
>>>>
>>>    I searched the ietf-languages archives and did not find any sort of post
>>>  or proposal from you. I forwarded one of your messages from SLIM to that
>>>  list in November 2015, expecting you to follow up with a proposal, but
>>>  nothing materialized.
>>>    --
>>>  Doug Ewell | Thornton, CO, US | ewellic.org
>>>
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
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>>>  <mailto:[e-mail]>[e-mail]
>>> 
>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>>
>>
>
>  --
>  -----------------------------------------
>  Gunnar Hellström
>  Omnitor
>  <mailto:[e-mail]>[e-mail]
>  [phone]
>
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-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
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