Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists"
Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Wed, 28 November 2012 15:18 UTC
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 10:18:05 -0500
From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
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Subject: Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists"
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On 11/27/2012 01:00 PM, Barry Leiba wrote: > This brings up a question that I have as an AD: A number of times > since I started in this position in March, documents have come to the > IESG that prompted me (or another AD) to look into the document > history for... to find that there's basically no history. We see a > string of versions posted, some with significant updates to the text, > but *no* corresponding mailing list discussion. Nothing at all. The > first we see of the document on the mailing list is a working group > last call message, which gets somewhere between zero and two responses > (which say "It's ready."), and then it's sent to the responsible AD > requesting publication. When I ask the responsible AD or the document > shepherd about that, the response is that, well, no one commented on > the list, but it was discussed in the face-to-face meetings. A look in > the minutes of a few meetings shows that it was discussed, but, of > course, the minutes show little or none of the discussion. We accept > that, and we review the document as usual, accepting the document > shepherd's writeup that says that the document has "broad consensus of > the working group." So here's my question: Does the community want us > to push back on those situations? Please, please, please push back on those discussions. Far too many documents are being represented as WG consensus, and then IETF consensus, when there's nothing of the sort. This degrades the overall quality of IETF output, confuses the community of people who use IETF standards, and potentially does harm to the Internet by promoting use of protocols that haven't been carefully vetted. Simply presenting a document at a face-to-face meeting and asking people to raise hands or hum in approval isn't sufficient. A necessary condition for IESG consideration of a WG document should be that several people have posted to the WG mailing list that they've read it, and that they consider it desirable and sound. Keith
- "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Barry Leiba
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Marc Blanchet
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" joel jaeggli
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" ned+ietf
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" t.p.
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Melinda Shore
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Andrew Sullivan
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Geoff Huston
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" David Meyer
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" John C Klensin
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" SM
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" David Morris
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Joe Touch
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Hector Santos
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" John Leslie
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Donald Eastlake
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Brian E Carpenter
- RE: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" John C Klensin
- Barely literate minutes (was: "IETF work is done … SM
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Randy Bush
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Yoav Nir
- RE: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" tglassey
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Keith Moore
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Dave Crocker
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Eliot Lear
- Pre-IETF work ( was - Re: "IETF work is done on t… Dave Crocker
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Barely literate minutes (was: "IETF work is d… John C Klensin
- Re: Barely literate minutes Scott Brim
- Re: Barely literate minutes Sam Hartman
- Re: Barely literate minutes Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: Barely literate minutes Dave Crocker
- Re: Barely literate minutes Sam Hartman
- Re: Barely literate minutes Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: Barely literate minutes Pete Resnick
- Re: Barely literate minutes Randy Bush
- Re: Barely literate minutes Dave Crocker
- Re: Barely literate minutes SM
- Re: Barely literate minutes Bob Hinden
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Geoff Huston
- Re: Barely literate minutes John C Klensin
- RE: Barely literate minutes Hutton, Andrew
- Re: Barely literate minutes t.p.
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Eliot Lear
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Alessandro Vesely
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Edward Lewis
- Re: Barely literate minutes Barry Leiba
- Re: Barely literate minutes Dave Crocker
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" SM
- RE: Barely literate minutes Lee Howard
- Re: Barely literate minutes Randy Bush
- Re: Barely literate minutes Pete Resnick
- Re: Barely literate minutes Suresh Krishnan
- Re: Barely literate minutes Fernando Gont
- Re: Barely literate minutes Keith Moore
- PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely lit… Keith Moore
- Re: Barely literate minutes Dave Crocker
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Randall Gellens
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Randy Bush
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Melinda Shore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Randall Gellens
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Keith Moore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… SM
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Keith Moore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… John C Klensin
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Keith Moore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… John C Klensin
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Keith Moore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… John Levine
- English spoken here (was: PowerPoint considered h… SM
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: English spoken here (was: PowerPoint consider… John C Klensin
- Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken here) Dave Crocker
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… John C Klensin
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Dave Crocker
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Keith Moore
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Melinda Shore
- Presentation vs. Discussion sessions (was: PowerP… Keith Moore
- Re: Presentation vs. Discussion sessions Melinda Shore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Randall Gellens
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… joel jaeggli
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: Presentation vs. Discussion sessions Keith Moore
- Re: Presentation vs. Discussion sessions Melinda Shore
- Re: Presentation vs. Discussion sessions Keith Moore
- Acculturation [was Re: PowerPoint considered harm… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: English spoken here (was: PowerPoint consider… SM
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… joel jaeggli
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Joel jaeggli
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Randy Bush
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Joel jaeggli
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Randy Bush
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… joel jaeggli
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Dave Crocker
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Melinda Shore
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Tim Chown
- RE: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… George, Wes
- RE: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… George, Wes
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- RE: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… George, Wes
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Tim Chown
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: English spoken here (was: PowerPoint consider… Steven Bellovin
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Tony Hansen
- RE: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Lee Howard
- Re: English spoken here Keith Moore
- Re: English spoken here Steven Bellovin
- Re: English spoken here John C Klensin
- Re: Presentation vs. Discussion sessions (was: Po… Randall Gellens