you should not feel bad about I-D document format preferences (was: very mangled subject)
Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Sat, 31 October 2020 11:18 UTC
Return-Path: <moore@network-heretics.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE89A3A194A for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 04:18:48 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0lZZUhXNCI5x for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 04:18:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30BF93A1947 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 04:18:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 305C89FA for <ietf@ietf.org>; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 07:18:44 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 31 Oct 2020 07:18:44 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=b390Wwb3tNY63IYOeCwKyHEICAbMBTs/GvUsKfpJy 5I=; b=WMT9Y7++UFqn0esqXryBtw/kreV7biVSbm98jhEIUxw3iL4DYSoDkRI3P LK7opVRyuGEVoeZmKlxvFhoMXUULYiF1+MlWyembcwPH1feJTzzAJ5lHni+qiq1S 9EMRCJCYygprliYN/491c/ba69fZWNVvHduT768rrwKAeNtdzwo1goRC8FjpWqRS UhK/lLvJ9RepgWBcRkhIT36b1qFVYnUWFaKFhQcN+UjwY7YBlDRyJdu3CgUziLlk rfbi83NknoYf+Dvt23UAgVb012OYwqrJ+HOWgHc4CdUX3pmWxg5sVCPdNPCREk7x EjwFIA84x3U9BqK6pyUkVkXe77tlg==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:E0idXx1q8O3fgWjTFODPAb59Y1uK5KRaS5LrVYZuQ4Yc5KoEHr3eGA> <xme:E0idX4FYZY9qjJ29w-BWklQvpDgBPZiL5NjoW6cO3D2EaqeHs80ctj4KY5-RBu06e XLh9mRNQRrQFw>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedujedrleejgddviecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthekre dttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephefhuedtheefgf efgffhkeehgfeugfeiudeugeejkeefleelueeiffetfeeuudeunecukfhppedutdekrddv vddurddukedtrdduheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:E0idXx7t9oecNJ27ZSwhg-wz-vtnF62JD4puTQLmVsWBGJECwNjAFQ> <xmx:E0idX-1Vt533KBR_HlqXCm4-lz5eAfhCVMhaicJEdPL6Hswfo4-u2Q> <xmx:E0idX0FIAteTJgkT_MUmhSpaA8Y4RcZ7mtgg-R92HXSaIV1wU3xIBA> <xmx:E0idX4FS-HxxZGuSAdzQ16d6XQxRU13poCS8ILwmKTYVSGPNikhnTw>
Received: from [192.168.1.85] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 0AD7F328005A for <ietf@ietf.org>; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 07:18:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: you should not feel bad about I-D document format preferences (was: very mangled subject)
To: ietf@ietf.org
References: <20201026181442.GA2438@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <CAMm+LwiVmE=qtSPCMD-3foPODL8bgETj3dQDKS-3BOM2021dEg@mail.gmail.c om> <CADaq8jdSeTDWy_0fCV25ykxKFMV1ZBtUMMNesoOuaXCzFVfpOA@mail.gmail.com> <D2D0455D-8D6C-4A19-ACAE-4DD972D83DC1@bluepopcorn.net> <20201028164053.GB12700@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <263C265C19B24BA97AF48934@PSB> <225062D7-C061-4543-8665-53A4F4831510@isc.org> <20201029005519.GT39170@kduck.mit.edu> <A05242FC-C38C-474F-A2AC-412329CA5C52@isc.org> <47fae06e-7c21-ec12-d6de-903fee3f3ad4@gmx.de> <cbf43e3f-05a3-368b-21dd-d15001326094@network-heretics.com> <ADC3E9AA6315978C909BD25B@PSB>
From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
Message-ID: <faf7d646-7b97-5649-2338-2f6e6f46b6e6@network-heretics.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2020 07:18:41 -0400
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <ADC3E9AA6315978C909BD25B@PSB>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Language: en-US
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/fXtMmK0zo8DmGy2JIqg111Y9uH4>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2020 11:18:49 -0000
First, I am sorry if I gave the impression that I thought any of "you should feel bad" about any preferences you might have for either input/authoring/revision or output formats for RFCs. I'm pretty sure that was not my intention. (I do appreciate Warren's mention of that, though. I was raised and schooled in a world full of "you should feel bad", and it's a poor habit of both speaking and thinking. And I struggle to think of occasions in which "you should feel bad" have actually helped people be wiser or better informed.) I have used all of the RFC output formats and continue to find all of them useful. If paginated plain text were added to the existing formats, I'm not sure that I would use that format very often, but its existence wouldn't bother me either. Even though I dislike the XML as an input/authoring/revision format, I see its value as a common format from which multiple output formats can be derived. (And I do not believe that "you should feel bad" if you either happen to like the XML or prefer paginated text as an output format.) The frustration which I was trying to express is something more like this: Every time I submit a new I-D, I dread the process of fighting with the format and the tools, generally under deadline pressure of some kind. Making the tools happy has often required more work than writing the text itself. And occasionally I've been unable to get the tools to produce the output in a form that I thought would be most readable. The problems I've seen aren't entirely with the XML2RFC language and the document processing tools, but also with the many requirements (for boilerplate etc) that we're expected to fulfill just in order to submit what used to be an informal proposal. Or at least it appears that way when I use the I-D submission tool. I remember when I could write an acceptable I-D using nothing more than emacs, and about the only requirement was knowing what email address to send it to. I got into the habit of using the xml2rfc language long ago when it seemed like the best way to make sure that the I-D would pass all of the various requirements for submitting one. (That was right after I had an I-D rejected, and missed a submission deadline, because I fixed a grammatical error in some of the prescribed boilerplate text.) But I just realized from filling out Jay's survey that there are now a lot of I-D authoring tools that I wasn't aware of, and that I didn't find the last time I looked for such tools sometime within the past year. (thanks Jay!) So I'm glad to see that more such tools exist, and I hope to find time to evaluate some of them before once again facing another deadline to write a new I-D. Keith
- FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty pleas… Toerless Eckert
- Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… David Noveck
- Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… Jim Fenton
- Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… Andrew G. Malis
- Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… Jim Fenton
- Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… David Noveck
- Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… Robert Sparks
- Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (… Carsten Bormann
- Setting Reply-To Robert Sparks
- Re: Setting Reply-To Derek Atkins
- Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numb… Toerless Eckert
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … John C Klensin
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Mark Andrews
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Julian Reschke
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Keith Moore
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Julian Reschke
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Warren Kumari
- Re: [rfc-i] Jim: Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Mark Andrews
- Re: [rfc-i] Jim: Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Larry Masinter
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Keith Moore
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Julian Reschke
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Keith Moore
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Julian Reschke
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Donald Eastlake
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Christian Huitema
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Mark Andrews
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … John C Klensin
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Leonard Giuliano
- Re: [rfc-i] Jim: Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Toerless Eckert
- RE: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Black, David
- Re: [irsg] Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs wit… Jane Coffin
- you should not feel bad about I-D document format… Keith Moore
- Re: you should not feel bad about I-D document fo… Andrew G. Malis
- Re: [rfc-i] Jim: Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … John C Klensin
- Re: [rfc-i] Jim: Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Larry Masinter
- Re: Authoring tools survey (Was: Jim: Re: [rfc-i]… IETF Executive Director