Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Sat, 23 October 2021 16:39 UTC
Return-Path: <john-ietf@jck.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E4FF3A0890 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 23 Oct 2021 09:39:41 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N-nOG95U3MJc for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 23 Oct 2021 09:39:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2457D3A088F for <ietf@ietf.org>; Sat, 23 Oct 2021 09:39:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from <john-ietf@jck.com>) id 1meK3N-000Eah-5C; Sat, 23 Oct 2021 12:39:29 -0400
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2021 12:39:23 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
cc: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits
Message-ID: <7102767AA0D5C9F679E9B61C@PSB>
In-Reply-To: <C3ECF081-E47E-4E2B-B17F-F5D39111B114@akamai.com>
References: <394BBA1E-FA83-4E80-A143-BE3F0764DCDA@tzi.org> <F2D8B2B0-1005-424F-9984-3AC6F951E02F@eggert.org> <CDD17BF9-BBF6-413F-80A6-2928995807C1@akamai.com> <4506E7DA9EF80C64C6AE9432@PSB> <C3ECF081-E47E-4E2B-B17F-F5D39111B114@akamai.com>
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/hD_50YySuDz3K-_LnxyqdnQa7U8>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2021 16:39:42 -0000
--On Saturday, October 23, 2021 15:52 +0000 "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote: > My proposal takes the hard decision-making out of Nomcom's > hands, and puts it into the IETF community. > > We've been saying it's everyone's job to find and groom > candidates. One way to think of my proposal is that it is a > forcing function for that. Rich, Absolutely, including the advantages of putting more responsibility and pressure on the community to find and groom candidates. That has considerable appeal to me. That is balanced or countered in my mind by two things: (1) I'm concerned about edge cases in which an extra (i.e., third) term would be in the interest of the incumbent and the community. If you allowed for an exception procedure --whether the exception were made my the Nomcom or some community action-- I'd be much more comfortable about it. It that exception procedure were hard to use... so much the better as long as it is plausible. (2) Overlapping the above, I've got a general distrust of trying to do things by rigid rules in the IETF. We've historically been much better off delegating responsibility and and authority to groups or clusters of people, letting them do their work, and then holding them accountable for it. The big problem with the Nomcom in that regard is that they do whatever they do, their internal discussions and the information they base them on are largely confidential, and there is no accountability mechanism. I don't have any idea how to "fix" that which isn't worse than the problem -- and making rigid rules may be in that category of fix. However, IMO, if we don't like giving guidance to the Nomcom and then letting them exercise discretion, we should probably be looking at how we select our leadership more generally rather than imposing more rules on the current process. YMMD, of course. Finally, I don't see your proposal the same way you describe it in your first paragraph. If one thinks about individual cases and candidacies, it seems to me that what the proposal does is to deprive the Nomcom of the option of making one particular type of hard decision while shifting no responsibility for those decisions to the community at all (even if it increases the pressure on the community to generate more candidates). best, john
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Lars Eggert
- Agenda item request Salz, Rich
- Re: Agenda item request John C Klensin
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Michael StJohns
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Barry Leiba
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Barry Leiba
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Carsten Bormann
- draft-leiba-term-limit-guidance-00 [was: draft-rs… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits John Levine
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits John C Klensin
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Barry Leiba
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Barry Leiba
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits John C Klensin
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits John C Klensin
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits John C Klensin
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Barry Leiba
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft-rsalz-termlimits Scott O. Bradner