Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100

Lorenzo Colitti <> Fri, 27 May 2016 04:28 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 303CD12D59B for <>; Thu, 26 May 2016 21:28:03 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.116
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.116 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key)
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pbx6uDqpD76N for <>; Thu, 26 May 2016 21:28:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ( [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3771712D53B for <>; Thu, 26 May 2016 21:28:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by with SMTP id o16so96046515ywd.2 for <>; Thu, 26 May 2016 21:28:01 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Dkv5vnGds4A+p60Ez6l+08kJkFClH9x14v6PR4UrioI=; b=YUTB7U/lXqk1bWlbZSSqqunHWuBtd5cSBnFHVt7A/dzq0tNdYx+o6ogsEAt1jCP7Jn sh0juKwTG9HAsjiPz7yFUO5UomeK3zyyrTRVXckebYoGMkuYQ+2f8bydWiJTRs/LzA0v xyX8Z8A9W1/zSeUULHHL9IURboM0sYj/7epNE0AoNTiilf+RYUFJU3r7RHfuLfj10Ci/ /Lf7peaijJ/h7/URPvLYLcPle3tQwATVhD+iScKr+B8fkT9+HmpR1UwOgz9J7MtyqhOD qsHG2YAt61JMUgnZwqo2zR0YqWXNDrldHxpuMQp5Q0LVgVesbA8/qztHpEkPvRr4y9WT pXoQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Dkv5vnGds4A+p60Ez6l+08kJkFClH9x14v6PR4UrioI=; b=C9OMuwOwTwGovf2KnMcRT4kKexWTMtrWv4l835U15B402VfsLjVMfyPx8a5ReApxH6 zX+nwi9Wk1OInyIpKLJ7WuzGVpgRdHCWgzQkPzdXxjsiwD6BPXkaoYOIx9sfumnMasGz ZAjJtuBs7cuRv5pQZxPhCLDlJenHuq8hrjVWVoH2t8yddVwdGJIOxZKfMjUtYwBYgXBE s+hSXkCXLNGDcYc8cmbVLczCRqrFInqC0yxrQmpeU1Q2/mTR0sbChNENZhSwqV7UtQ4p vjrOd779a4Fx4I2zH+T4zod6aXAptp9gdltY9EfY4EdrvwpOHJa3gqgInuda4MC1NVzY PQ7g==
X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tIk+rFpuuQEpT/z9nR/WfuoJEHIMZ1aycDGsOuqItXlOh46NtNUItTMzJtCjMvMA2+48knbFYk2h+SVejOH
X-Received: by with SMTP id g205mr8344825ywb.66.1464323280236; Thu, 26 May 2016 21:28:00 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by with HTTP; Thu, 26 May 2016 21:27:40 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <>
References: <> <> <> <> <> <>
From: Lorenzo Colitti <>
Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 13:27:40 +0900
Message-ID: <>
Subject: Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100
To: Fernando Gont <>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114dc694f4f7ca0533cb5400
Archived-At: <>
Cc: "" <>, Margaret Cullen <>, "Fred Baker \(fred\)" <>, "Ietf@Ietf. Org" <>
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 04:28:03 -0000

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 9:11 AM, Fernando Gont <>

> Or is it just that only some forms/expressions of diversity are desirable?

That's a fascinating question. All else being equal you might imagine that
any group of people would give the earliest/most thought to the forms of
diversity that are the most represented in that group, simply because it is
more obvious to them. Thus, the IETF has had a geographic diversity policy
for a long time, while other forms of diversity were represented
less/later. At the other extreme, there may be forms of diversity that the
IETF as a group is not even aware of due to lack of experience.

I found it interesting how one message mentioned, "gender, race, color,
religion, age, sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression, or
marital status", but didn't mention economic status, past visits (e.g.,
whether you've been to Syria) country of origin, non-religious ideological
beliefs, food allergies, medical conditions, and other things that might
cause us to exclude people.

I don't know how an organization can/should decide which forms of diversity
to mandate/incentivize/encourage/accommodate and to what degree. In most
cases the people who are most present in the IETF tend to think that
democracy is the fairest way to make decisions, but sometimes arguments of
the form "let's do what is best for the most people" are characterized as
being "the tyranny of the majority". At the same time, pretty much any
choice will result in excluding someone, so how do you make that choice?

Also, do we want to avoid a vocal minority being able to have more
influence over the organization as a whole than a less vocal minority that
is equally represented? Is the vocal minority more vocal because their
concerns are more important than the less vocal minority, or because they
are otherwise predisposed (culturally, or as a group, or because other
groups are sympathetic to their case) to being more vocal? If that were the
case, how would we even find out?

I don't know if anyone has satisfactory answers to the question above. I
certainly don't, and I wish I did. There may be no answer that is
satisfactory to everyone, which I suppose is the heart of the problem.