Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews]

Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> Fri, 08 November 2019 01:07 UTC

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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
To: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
cc: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews]
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References: <CAJU8_nUovmFmgNiYx0ez_1f+GPdU9xGViDYWfowEEomrn0pyDw@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911040841160.27600@bofh.nohats.ca> <CE06CC6D-E37F-4C90-B782-D14B1D715D4B@cable.comcast.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> <57465486-71b1-a87a-fa8c-bad7157f9025@gmail.com> <3caeb4cf-b92b-99fd-77df-7b1aef3e2979@network-heretics.com> <12884.1573157976@localhost> <8b46db76-574a-bd2c-18af-0546dee0fd3e@network-heretics.com>
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Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 20:07:10 -0500
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Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>; wrote:
    > On 11/7/19 3:19 PM, Michael Richardson wrote:
    >> Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>; wrote:
    >> > This is where the biggest disconnect between 2026 and reality is.   If the
    >> > reality is that industry is going to deploy implementations at Proposed
    >> > Standard or sooner (and as far as I can tell, that's been reality for as long
    >> > as there's been an Internet "industry"), it makes sense for IETF to recognize
    >> > that and react accordingly.
    >>
    >> You are saying this as if it's a bug.
    >> It's not!  It's by design.
    >> We deploy at PS in order to find out if there is interoperability.

    > My first impression is that this is indeed a bug, a tremendous disservice to
    > Internet users.   But I remind myself that automatic software update is
    > becoming increasingly common.   So at least for products that are certain to
    > be run on Internet-connected hosts (as opposed to, say, on air-gapped
    > networks), and for which secure update can be provided, there might be
    > cases

An alternative view is that air-gapped systems should only run Internet
Standards.

    > I could imagine that rather than the initial RFC being at PS, it could be
    > (for some cases, probably not all) at something akin to what Draft Standard
    > used to be - interop testing already done by the time the initial RFC is
    > published, with any changes made as a result of the testing incorporated into
    > that RFC.

I think that we kept the wrong two steps!

    >> > If we want there to be a prototype "just for testing" status, it should
    >> > probably be called something other than Proposed - the name has come to mean
    >> > something else in IETF context.   And we should deliberately change one or
    >> > more protocol elements to make the standard incompatible with
    >>
    >> We do "just for testing" regularly at the internet-draft stage.

    > yeah, and it doesn't make sense to go through the whole RFC publication
    > process just to agree on a specification to test to.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>;, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-