Re: A sad farewell
Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> Thu, 05 November 2020 00:17 UTC
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References: <71444008-c716-d83f-a2e2-6e4c7e3fd58a@levkowetz.com> <5360E06F-5639-43D6-8A7E-FA141989A884@gmail.com> <20201103200745.GA12654@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <b0ca070f-dd1f-1b8d-940c-7e4c57ea8393@cisco.com>
In-Reply-To: <b0ca070f-dd1f-1b8d-940c-7e4c57ea8393@cisco.com>
From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2020 19:17:20 -0500
Message-ID: <CAG4d1rczMJA3jyqqV3EakRcF_sX=sQEyGBZ69At3SL+uFCVoXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: A sad farewell
To: Benoit Claise <bclaise=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>, IETF Discussion <ietf@ietf.org>
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Henrik, Benoit has put into words better than I could my feelings. I am very sad to see your email and deeply appreciate all your contributions over an extended time to the IETF as part of the community. I greatly enjoyed and appreciated the chances I had to collaborate with you. Regards, Alia On Wed, Nov 4, 2020 at 3:33 PM Benoit Claise <bclaise= 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > Henrik, all, > > I see a lot of well-deserved "thank you" emails. I could add to those > ... even if I did thank you many times verbally in the past. > > However, I'm with Toerless here: frustrated > How does a community-centric organization such as the IETF arrive to a > point of making its most passionate/dedicated people feel so excluded > and frustrated that they leave the organization. The community and the > current/future IESG must reflect on that ... if we want to the IETF to > remain relevant. > > When I was in the IESG, I witnessed that the real guardians of the IETF > process is actually the secretariat: they know what could (not) be done > and gently corrected ADs' mistakes. Similarly, the real guardians of the > tools are Henrik & company. > The secretariat and tools team might be contractors, but first of all, > they're members of the community. And they should be considered as such! > Remove the secretariat & the tools team and the IETF will simply stop > working. > > I'm thankful for Henrik's dedication to this organization but at the > same time sorry, sad, and frustrated. > > Regards, Benoit > > > I find the responses on this thread quite frustrating. > > > > They are exactly like what i have come to experience when people > > have to leave big companies because of horribly bad management and > > nobody sees a way to improve management. I would have hoped > > that IETF culture and community influence was better and that > > something like this should not have happened or could even be > > reversed by community outcry and forcing change in leadership > > behavior. > > > > I am sorry to hear the insight about LLC operations, because to me > > the contributor facing view i had was very positive. But either i am > > not on the right mailing lists, or these internal conflicts are > > not exposed at all for the community to be able to influence them. > > > > In any case, i fear that progress of tooling, especially in these > > critical times of migration to XMLv3 starting to expose limitations > > and IMHO a need for ongoing "free-of-process" improvement of tooling. > > > > To me, IETF is best when it is driven by engagement of contributors, > > and (rough) community consensus, and not by leadership decisions. > > Unfortunately, i think we are shifting more and more to this leadership > > preference based constrainment of innitiatives, innovation and > activities, > > spending more time on prohibiting activities than encouraging them. > > This is IMHO, what is going to kill IETF if it continues. > > > > To me, the tooling team was predominantly visible through the > > extreme responsible hands-on work of Henrik, and i just considered > > him to be the lead contributor to the "tools-track", so the fact > > that he was because of reasons of contract and management decisions > > kept out of the strategy is exactly the problem of self-righteous > > managemenet centric companies. I guess we never had better oversight > > of management tradition, because we came from a long time where we > > may have just been very lucky in our choices of leadership. I don't know. > > > > *sigh* > > > > Cheers > > toerless > > > > On Tue, Nov 03, 2020 at 02:19:52PM -0500, Suresh Krishnan wrote: > >> I am very sorry to hear that Henrik. Thanks for everything you have > done for us over the years. The tools work you did made my IETF work as an > author, chair, reviewer and AD much more pleasant and efficient. We will > greatly miss you. > >> > >> Regards > >> Suresh > >> > >>> On Nov 3, 2020, at 9:42 AM, Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com> > wrote: > >>> > >>> Dear friends and acquaintances, > >>> > >>> After 20 years of writing tools for the IETF, I will let my contract > for > >>> tools maintenance lapse at the end of the year, and move on to other > things. > >>> The reason is the attitude of the current IETF Chair and LLC Board > towards > >>> contractors in particular and IETF participants in general. Care for > the > >>> community doesn't seem to matter to them. > >>> > >>> The current Chair and LLC Board seems to see contractors, including the > >>> secretariat and myself, not as members of the community, but simply > someone > >>> who should do what they are told by the authority in charge. This in > total > >>> contrast with the approach of Russ Housley as IETF Chair; he explicitly > >>> tried to make the secretariat and other contractors an integral part > of the > >>> community, inviting them in, rather than pushing them out. > >>> > >>> Remembering how supportive the previous full Exec Dir, Ray Pelletier > had > >>> been with respect to the tools work, I was hoping that things would > change > >>> at the end of last year with Jay Daley; unfortunately it hasn't; > rather the > >>> opposite, and it has simply become too painful to carry on. > >>> > >>> Things got bad at the end of last year, when the LLC Board went back > on their > >>> word after accepting my bid on the RFP in full without reservations; > they > >>> simply changed the contract offered without one word of conversation > about > >>> the changes. My bid would have been substantially different for an > RFP with > >>> the conditions in that contract. That was tough, but the final straw > came at > >>> the beginning of 2020, when a Tools Architecture and Strategy Team was > >>> established to look at the tools future, and I was excluded from it. > Being > >>> considered a replaceable cog and not a part of the community is not a > fun > >>> environment in which to work, and I've been depressed for most of the > year > >>> following that. > >>> > >>> The consequence is, as indicated above, that I will not sign on to any > >>> contract renewal or bid on any new RFP when the current term runs out > for > >>> the tools maintenance contract at the end of the year. > >>> > >>> Many and big thanks are due to all the IETF chairs who have supported > and > >>> encouraged my tools work: Harald Alvestrand, Brian Carpenter, Russ > Housley, > >>> and Jari Arkko. Huge appreciation and gratitude also goes to Robert > Sparks > >>> and Russ Housley for the privilege of working with them in the Tools > Team > >>> and the TMC (Tools Management Committee). And finally, thanks to all > the > >>> members of the community who over the years have made it a joy to do > tools > >>> work, by expressing their appreciation of the tools. > >>> > >>> ---------- > >>> > >>> The longer story, for background, to explain how I came to feel so > strongly > >>> about being excluded from tools architecture work and having the LLC > Board > >>> go back on their word without even thinking it was worth talking to me > about > >>> it: > >>> > >>> I wrote my first draft of a draft in 1999; my first meeting was IETF > 49. > >>> > >>> In 2001, Sami Vaarala and I both presented drafts outlining NAT > traversal > >>> for Mobile IP, and based on the way we worked to merge these and build > >>> consensus, I became co-chair of MIP4, a position I held till the group > was > >>> closed in 2015 (although there was essentially no activity during the > last > >>> 5 years). > >>> > >>> I early thought it absolutely silly that in the internet age, IETF > documents > >>> were not available as HTML documents with internal and external > links. That > >>> led to rfcmarkup (2002), which was deployed to provide htmlized > versions of > >>> RFCs, and later drafts, first on my own domain, and later on > tools.ietf.org. > >>> > >>> As I was writing drafts, I was annoyed with having to manually check > the format > >>> requirements (line length, boilerplate, and whatnot), and adapted an > awk > >>> snipped as a 10-line script to check line length for me (2003). That > grew, > >>> and became 'idnits'. > >>> > >>> Having to read new revisions of drafts, to keep up with other Mobile IP > >>> contributions, I found it annoying not to know where the changes in > the new > >>> rev were, and how much was changed. This led to 'rfcdiff' (2003). > >>> > >>> As WG co-chairs, we had to put together a summary of the status of the > various > >>> documents before each meeting -- that status report was the main way > to let > >>> participants know about draft progress, since there was no datatracker > in > >>> 2000, and no WG support in the IESG tracker tool when it appeared. > Doing the > >>> summary each meeting was very much drudge work, and becoming tired of > repeating > >>> the exercise each meeting, I created a document status page for MIP4, > updated > >>> automatically from various text files available from the draft > repository and > >>> the IESG tracker (around 2004). Other chairs saw this, and asked me > to do the > >>> same for them, and it grew from there, and was eventually incorporated > into the > >>> official datatracker as WG pages. > >>> > >>> Around late 2006/early 2007, serious SQL injection vulnerabilities were > >>> discovered in the datatracker as it was then. After a lot of > feet-dragging > >>> by the vendor in addressing the vulnerabilities, Bill Fenner and I > started > >>> a skunk-works project to completely rewrite the publicly accessible > datatracker > >>> from old-style Perl to Python and Django. For 2 months we worked up > to 10 > >>> hours per day, and disclosed the effort only when we had enough in > place to > >>> show that the effort was viable. The powers that were applauded the > effort, > >>> and we carried through, and released the rewrite in June 2007. > >>> > >>> I continued to do tools work during 40%-50% of my time up till 2016, > at no > >>> cost to the IETF -- all work and tools were donated by myself or my > employer > >>> over the years. In 2016 I was about to switch employers, and the IETF > >>> Chair and several previous chairs saw the opportunity to get me to > work full > >>> time on IETF tools, which I happily did until the current chair > started to > >>> seriously treat me not as a member of the community but as a > contractor that > >>> needed to be told just what to do in early 2018. After that, things > went > >>> downhill. > >>> > >>> As mentioned earlier, the final straw came early this year, when > Alissa and > >>> Jay decided to set up a Tools Architecture and Strategy Team, and > excluded > >>> me from that work. That was to me such a clear and unequivocal > statement > >>> of me not being considered part of the community that it drove me into > a > >>> depression, from which I could only partially recover by distancing > myself > >>> from the tools effort more and more. The depression has gone in waves > in > >>> the following months, often triggered by additional actions and > statements > >>> showing the same attitude. > >>> > >>> I don't know which attitude the next Chair will have, but even if it's > more > >>> in line with earlier chairs, the LLC Board and Jay, who have been part > of > >>> making this year a miserable one for me, will still be there, not much > changed. > >>> > >>> So it's not with joy I move on and look for other things to occupy me; > it's > >>> with sadness in abandoning an area in which I've invested a lot of > myself > >>> over the last 20 years. > >>> > >>> My best wishes to you all going forward. > >>> > >>> > >>> Henrik > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >
- Re: A sad farewell Russ Housley
- A sad farewell Henrik Levkowetz
- Re: A sad farewell Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: A sad farewell Alissa Cooper
- RE: A sad farewell Ron Bonica
- Re: A sad farewell Barry Leiba
- Re: A sad farewell Suresh Krishnan
- Re: A sad farewell Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: A sad farewell Toerless Eckert
- Re: A sad farewell Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: A sad farewell Keith Moore
- Re: A sad farewell JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: A sad farewell Stephen Farrell
- Re: A sad farewell Daniel Migault
- Re: A sad farewell S Moonesamy
- Re: A sad farewell Charlie Perkins
- Re: A sad farewell Jay Daley
- Re: A sad farewell Loa Andersson
- Re: A sad farewell Soininen, Jonne (Nokia - FI/Espoo)
- Re: A sad farewell Dirk Kutscher
- Re: A sad farewell Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: A sad farewell Carsten Bormann
- Re: A sad farewell Lloyd W
- Re: A sad farewell Leif Johansson
- Re: A sad farewell Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: A sad farewell Julian Reschke
- Re: A sad farewell Ralph Droms
- Re: A sad farewell Brian E Carpenter
- Re: A sad farewell Benoit Claise
- Re: A sad farewell Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: A sad farewell Keith Moore
- Re: A sad farewell Joseph Touch
- Re: A sad farewell Jim Fenton
- Re: A sad farewell Alia Atlas
- RE: A sad farewell Valery Smyslov
- WAIT. Take a moment. Re: A sad farewell Eliot Lear
- Re: WAIT. Take a moment. Re: A sad farewell Alexander Pelov
- Re: WAIT. Take a moment. Re: A sad farewell Carsten Bormann
- Re: WAIT. Take a moment. Re: A sad farewell Henrik Levkowetz
- Re: A sad farewell Henrik Levkowetz
- Re: A sad farewell Mehmet Ersue
- RE: A sad farewell Eric Gray
- Re: A sad farewell Stewart Bryant
- Re: A sad farewell Theodore Y. Ts'o
- Re: A sad farewell Leif Johansson
- Re: A sad farewell Larry Masinter
- Re: A sad farewell Leif Johansson
- Re: A sad farewell Pete Resnick
- Re: A sad farewell Carsten Bormann
- Re: A sad farewell Joe Touch
- Re: A sad farewell Joel M. Halpern
- Re: A sad farewell Larry Masinter
- Re: A sad farewell Jay Daley
- Re: A sad farewell Joseph Touch
- Re: A sad farewell Larry Masinter
- Re: A sad farewell Brian E Carpenter
- Re: A sad farewell Jay Daley
- Re: A sad farewell Salz, Rich
- Re: A sad farewell Larry Masinter
- Re: A sad farewell Salz, Rich
- Re: A sad farewell Salz, Rich
- Re: A sad farewell Larry Masinter
- Re: A sad farewell Joseph Touch
- Re: A sad farewell Keith Moore
- Re: A sad farewell Masataka Ohta
- Re: A sad farewell Joseph Touch
- Re: A sad farewell Lloyd W
- Re: A sad farewell Leif Johansson
- discussion of tools and requirements Re: A sad fa… Amelia Andersdotter
- Re: A sad farewell Fernando Gont
- Re: A sad farewell Livingood, Jason
- Re: A sad farewell Livingood, Jason
- RE: A sad farewell Adrian Farrel
- Re: A sad farewell Livingood, Jason
- Re: A sad farewell Fernando Gont
- Re: A sad farewell Alissa Cooper
- Re: A sad farewell Salz, Rich
- Document diffs... Re: A sad farewell Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Document diffs... Re: A sad farewell Joseph Touch
- Re: Document diffs... Re: A sad farewell Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: A sad farewell tom petch
- Re: Document diffs... Re: A sad farewell Joseph Touch
- Re: A sad farewell Russ Housley
- Why we have situated software (Re: A sad farewell) Carsten Bormann
- Re: Why we have situated software (Re: A sad fare… Pete Resnick
- Why we have situated software (Re: A sad farewell) Carsten Bormann
- Re: Document diffs... Re: A sad farewell Carsten Bormann
- Re: A sad farewell Donald Eastlake
- and... text for the win Michael Richardson
- Re: and... text for the win John Levine
- Re: and... text for the win Carsten Bormann
- Re: and... text for the win Julian Reschke
- Re: and... text for the win Christian Huitema
- Re: and... text for the win Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: and... text for the win Carsten Bormann
- Re: and... text for the win Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: and... text for the win Charlie Perkins
- Re: A sad farewell Masataka Ohta
- What is going wrong? Was: A sad farewell Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: What is going wrong? Was: A sad farewell Masataka Ohta