Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF

Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> Fri, 26 February 2021 16:18 UTC

Return-Path: <hallam@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDB993A0EFB for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 08:18:22 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.399
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yntN4pok38wJ for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 08:18:21 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-yb1-f181.google.com (mail-yb1-f181.google.com [209.85.219.181]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D32143A0EC4 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 08:18:20 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-yb1-f181.google.com with SMTP id m188so9382423yba.13 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 08:18:20 -0800 (PST)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2QSIGEQ7Pu7yKMQPFzFcuuQfSJeyz/cifKT/VhKYJ7w=; b=JjcP9tAbpQq8sb7kRqsWGZFeGxEctM8l/PlRQqVIcDMAb8auR/sIAkqYjj9Th6yEfE LYvXQ0PkzgnyOBCWTP4PEESFIAaKXeza7XxdmPHEBDKKmN95XOHh5R/Z5vBkVCHCCzkX j0TlicgKSEz10fIYEIMz85/a/yQiGyycD5/dlrRymDV64k9+od8vkhDjjprymaelkFBY tFNbtKIHbQ8R4zOIjkY+PwRwXVA61RdKW/4Cm3dyDckhMATJxSg9NO9lQpfsdhE4913a D8XIJw0t2rNH9pwDBCkRKcXCKNERb8R8B+rtdHYFg0A/WYm8IsRBnFEfeHzaVKXvPX8I ubJQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531JhUypZZa0zOOxjySkuYBRYUta9qLvcagpG5cMrIaWMxBn4ma/ cJMpoLHvZZvz5OrC0sSpW3qJOn+EDizXVnKw4K4=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwDWRP/mNY48H38RvWb5q+FrpsQEnfZRaOMJtMRAf9wRCrA/8D+syDlfWxsl143h5+MzPReYWQ0VgeOh9cnNNI=
X-Received: by 2002:a25:2307:: with SMTP id j7mr5805825ybj.518.1614356300052; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 08:18:20 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <LO2P265MB057322BA95B1B44D4175356BC29E9@LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> <089096b1-10d2-3eac-d37c-f040a1930061@network-heretics.com> <37142313-C251-40DC-9336-D3A2F0FB69AD@tzi.org> <001d01d70be3$ff0972d0$fd1c5870$@acm.org> <213FBF20-E8BB-40C3-ACAF-40A53731A23C@tzi.org> <c14f77c6-adc0-0d0b-5c17-c25c19e9ce5f@nic.cz> <CAC8QAcfsiCT7AprEdfK5B38jzaANh+2rQiv3k2x=U1MPvTU3Fg@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAC8QAcfsiCT7AprEdfK5B38jzaANh+2rQiv3k2x=U1MPvTU3Fg@mail.gmail.com>
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:18:08 -0500
Message-ID: <CAMm+LwiCggzBxpYsGjhGdf7Sa-xgG3Fk8Pwr_++_QFTbn_RahA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF
To: sarikaya@ieee.org
Cc: Ladislav Lhotka <ladislav.lhotka@nic.cz>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ce3b1d05bc3f9d4a"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/irgSXGwkQfpyme1bMWXlzl5qhxc>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 16:18:29 -0000

My problem with XML2RFC format is simple: I learned how to use SGML
properly when working on HTML and the XML2RFC format breaks so many rules
it is really hard to remember what the peculiarities are. HTML was well
established when the format was proposed but everything had to be done
different. The revised version is an improvement but it is a C++ solution,
it can't address the fundamentally bad decisions of what it is built on.
Nor can XML overcome all the idiocies of SGML.

What I suspect Larry was referring to when he said Microsoft has better
tools for this is their collaboration tools rather than Word. Though I do
like using Word because it has annotation features and change tracking
built in.



On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 10:49 AM Behcet Sarikaya <sarikaya2012@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 2:06 AM Ladislav Lhotka <ladislav.lhotka@nic.cz>
> wrote:
>
>> On 26. 02. 21 8:36, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>> > On 2021-02-26, at 03:06, Larry Masinter <LMM@acm.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> For collaboration, there's a generation of collaborative tools from
>> Google Docs to Dropbox and Microsoft tools that are a lot better than
>> GitHub for collaboration.
>> >
>> > I’m sorry, Larry, you’d have to have a very weird sense of “better” to
>> believe that.
>> >
>> > I have had extensive exposure to the MS-Word type of “collaboration” (I
>> was the editor of RFC 3095 which was done in MS-Word, with 16
>> collaborators).  The English language does not have words to describe that
>> experience.
>>
>> +1
>>
>> For me, one of the greatest virtues of the IETF work style has always
>> been that I wasn't forced to use MS Office (or similar software, which
>> is often even worse).
>>
>>
>
> I think a lot of people would like to use Word because of wide spread use
> of MS Office in workplace. It is almost standard there. Appreciating this
> even Apple comes up with Office for MAC software.
>
> I disagree with those who say MS-Word collaboration is not good, that
> means you don't know Word well :)
>
> Having said that I have always preferred to use XML2RFC tool and continue
> to use it. I am sure some people will always be happy using Word.
>
> Behcet
>
>> Lada
>>
>> >
>> > For hacking out a quick draft, shared editors like Google Docs are fine
>> (we mostly use hedgedoc née codimd née hackmd for that, and it sure is
>> fun).  For structured, controlled collaboration in a large team, nothing
>> beats VCS systems like git, and github has a lot of mindshare in the tools
>> around that process (issue tracking etc.).
>> >
>> > It is simply hilarious to imagine the QUIC or HTTPBIS WGs typing away
>> at a shared Google doc.  That’s not how it works.  Specs are code, and
>> there is a good reason why creating good documents (like the core ones of
>> the above WGs) benefits from experience in collaborating on code.
>> >
>> > Grüße, Carsten
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Ladislav Lhotka
>> Head, CZ.NIC Labs
>> PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67
>>
>>