Re: The Next Generation
Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> Wed, 11 September 2019 19:47 UTC
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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 14:47:24 -0500
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From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
To: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>
Cc: Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com>, ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: The Next Generation
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References: <CAChr6Sz3j0iLGsB2bGvfitPzCkiTCJYHfmUF5S-8zPYMt1r+3A@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190911094010.0c933fa8@elandnews.com>
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On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 11:22:39AM -0700, S Moonesamy wrote: > Hi Rob, > At 05:35 PM 03-09-2019, Rob Sayre wrote: > > I noticed there were some parts of the last IETF meeting (105) that were > > sparsely attended. And, the attendees of those meetings tended to be > > [removed]. There's nothing wrong with that: no one chooses their > > [removed]. > > > > Although there is value in experience, maybe the IETF should work to > > hand off some duties to more diverse younger people. > > > > As a start, I propose identifying some current groups that could be > > better-handled by > > My reading of the relevant rules is that the message which I am sending is > off-topic for this mailing list. For what it is worth, one of the points in > your message (re. newcomers) was discussed [1] on this mailing list about a > decade ago. Did the SAAs call out Sayre's post as off-topic?? I didn't notice. But you know, there's so much noise on this list lately... If they said nothing even privately, then frankly that would be another stain on their recent performance. We can't quite know if they objected privately, of course, so it's hard to say. > There has been various proposals over the years about newcomers. Those > proposals do not set a metric for success. Some time ago, I chose a number > as part of an effort to get new people interested in working for free. I > reached half that number at the end of that endeavor. Based on that, I > would describe the venture as a failure. > > The person selecting people for the various roles is the Area Director. It > is his/her responsibility to assess whether the Area is attracting new > people and whether there aren't any obstacles which prevent or discourage > those new people from staying around. Not quite so. We're a VOLUNTEER organization. That means we're self-selected. ADs don't get to select participants. ADs may get to select or help select chairs for WGs, but that's about it. Now, some volunteers are asked by their employers to work on IETF matters, some by their customers, and others do it for other reasons. In principle the IETF could ask employers to be more, er, discriminating as to who they assign to work at the IETF. I wonder what the EEOC in the U.S. would think of that, were the IETF to do such a thing. I can imagine lawsuits. So before the IETF does any such thing, I'd recommend talking to lawyers. In any case, that leaves all other self-selected volunteers free to self-select. IETF leadership is another story. Though again, one wonders what the EEOC would think of the NomCom discriminating on bases for which discrimination in employment is forbidden -- the NomCom isn't an employer, so perhaps "nothing" is what the EEOC would think, but maybe Congress would think something else entirely. Again, speak to a lawyer before you think of engaging in such discrimination at the NomCom! Even so, the NomCom selects from among the group of self-selected volunteers. We can have a self-selected volunteer organization with zero control over its volunteers diversity scores, or we can have a non-volunteer organization that might be able to have an effect on the diversity of its actual participants through bylaws and governance that would have to.. not run afoul of American laws (the IETF, ISOC, and related entities being American legal entities). Who here can imagine the IETF no longer being a volunteer organization? I can, with effort anyways. I can imagine the IETF being like the Unicode Consortium, the IEEE, OASIS, ISO/ANSI, ITU-T -- pay-big-bucks- to-play. It's somewhat surprising that the IETF has not yet become a pay-to-play organization, or that it exists at all instead of the ITU-T taking over its functions. The IETF becoming pay-to-play would be the simplest way to put an end to all the recent bickering on this list, so there's that. Nico --
- The Next Generation Rob Sayre
- Re: The Next Generation Dan Harkins
- Re: The Next Generation Keith Moore
- Re: The Next Generation Rob Sayre
- Re: The Next Generation Kyle Rose
- Re: The Next Generation Melinda Shore
- Re: The Next Generation Keith Moore
- Re: The Next Generation Jared Mauch
- Re: The Next Generation Dan Harkins
- Re: The Next Generation Rob Sayre
- Re: The Next Generation John C Klensin
- Re: The Next Generation Michael StJohns
- Re: The Next Generation Alissa Cooper
- Re: The Next Generation Kyle Rose
- Re: The Next Generation Rob Sayre
- Re: The Next Generation lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk
- Re: The Next Generation Keith Moore
- Re: The Next Generation Leif Johansson
- Re: The Next Generation George Michaelson
- Re: The Next Generation Masataka Ohta
- Re: The Next Generation Keith Moore
- RE: The Next Generation Michel Py
- Re: The Next Generation Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: The Next Generation Keith Moore
- Re: The Next Generation John C Klensin
- Re: The Next Generation Keith Moore
- Re: The Next Generation John C Klensin
- Re: The Next Generation S Moonesamy
- Re: The Next Generation Nico Williams
- Re: The Next Generation Warren Kumari
- Re: The Next Generation Rob Sayre
- Re: The Next Generation S Moonesamy
- Re: The Next Generation Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: The Next Generation shogunx
- Voting Security (was: The Next Genaration) Eric Rescorla
- Re: Voting Security (was: The Next Genaration) Joe Abley
- Re: The Next Generation Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Voting Security (was: The Next Genaration) Joseph Lorenzo Hall
- Re: Voting Security (was: The Next Genaration) shogunx
- Re: Voting Security (was: The Next Genaration) Joseph Lorenzo Hall
- Re: Voting Security (was: The Next Genaration) Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: Voting Security (was: The Next Genaration) Joseph Lorenzo Hall
- Re: Voting Security (was: The Next Genaration) Joseph Lorenzo Hall
- Re: Voting Security (was: The Next Genaration) Salz, Rich
- Re: Voting Security Keith Moore
- Re: Voting Security shogunx
- Re: Voting Security (was: The Next Genaration) Eric Rescorla
- Re: Voting Security Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Voting Security shogunx
- Re: Voting Security Vittorio Bertola