management granularity (Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings)
Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net> Sat, 04 August 2012 20:32 UTC
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Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2012 13:31:49 -0700
From: Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net>
Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking
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To: James Polk <jmpolk@cisco.com>
Subject: management granularity (Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings)
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Cc: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, Ole Jacobsen <ole@cisco.com>, ietf list <ietf@ietf.org>
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Folks, On 8/3/2012 3:38 PM, James Polk wrote: > Having missed only 2 meetings in 13 years, I can say that no venue was > perfect, but some were very good. It becomes a case of which venues have > the fewest "bad" things. ... > The crowded hallway we can't change. > > We can change where the snacks are served, and I have read that will > happen for our next meeting in Vancouver here in 15 months. Long before I started serving on the IAOC (last year) it was clear to me that the Secretariat & related staff knew/knows how to do their job, both in terms of planning and in terms of fixing problems. My opinion hasn't changed in the last year. Well actually that's not quite true. They seem to be a bit better than I thought... It's not that a occasional suggestions are sure to be entirely unnecessary, it's that most of them are... (So, was it wrong that I felt a tiny glow of satisfaction at seeing a sign appear about a half-hour after suggesting it to them, at the beginning of the week?) On the other hand, there's a macro-management point that /does/ need to fall within the community purview: Should we constantly seek new venues or should we prefer returning to a small set of them? The tendency for the last 20 years has been to seek new venues quite often. Our rate of returning has been relatively low. That means that most meeting venues are unfamiliar and run the risk of some serious, unforseen problem. And my own observation was that we have tended to suffer roughly one major venue problem a year. Visiting familiar places means that a) we know the tradeoffs at a place, and b) we can tune our use of it. Visiting new places means we can find /better/ places to return to, albeit while also finding worse. Locking down on on a fixed set of venues means we miss these improvements. (It's also been noted that returning regularly often tends to get degraded performance over time.) However the tendency of the community has been to express preference for the tourism of going to new places. If we really want venues to function towards some ideal, we need the benefit of a multi-visit learning curve. And it means we stop being tourists. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
- Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings Paul Hoffman
- Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings Scott Brim
- Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings Mary Barnes
- Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings Paul Hoffman
- Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings Mary Barnes
- Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings Randy Bush
- Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings Mark Nottingham
- Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings Glen Zorn
- Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings Randy Bush
- Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings Mary Barnes
- Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings Mary Barnes
- Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings Thomas Nadeau
- Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings Mary Barnes
- Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings Alexa Morris
- Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings Mary Barnes
- Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings Stephen Farrell
- Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings James Polk
- Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings Tim Chown
- Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings Tim Chown
- Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings Michael Richardson
- management granularity (Re: Meeting "lounges" at … Dave Crocker
- Re: management granularity (Re: Meeting "lounges"… Livingood, Jason
- Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings Michael Richardson {quigon}
- RE: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings Worley, Dale R (Dale)
- Re: management granularity (Re: Meeting "lounges"… John Levine
- Re: management granularity (Re: Meeting "lounges"… Dave Crocker
- Re: management granularity (Re: Meeting "lounges"… Mark Nottingham
- Re: Meeting "lounges" at IETF meetings Andrew G. Malis
- Re: management granularity (Re: Meeting "lounges"… SM
- So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granular… Andrew Sullivan
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Daniele Ceccarelli
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
- Re: So, where to repeat? joel jaeggli
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Ole Jacobsen
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Andrew Sullivan
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Mary Barnes
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Mary Barnes
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: So, where to repeat? Melinda Shore
- Re: So, where to repeat? Scott Brim
- Re: So, where to repeat? Michal Krsek
- Re: So, where to repeat? Andrew Sullivan
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Richard Shockey
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Michael Richardson
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Margaret Wasserman
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Carsten Bormann
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Arturo Servin
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Arturo Servin
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… John Levine
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Mary Barnes
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… John R Levine
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Mary Barnes
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Andrew G. Malis
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Worley, Dale R (Dale)
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Andrew Sullivan
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
- the methodology (was: So, where to repeat? (was: … ext Andrew Sullivan
- Re: So, where to repeat? Sam Hartman
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Anshuman Pratap Chaudhary
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Livingood, Jason
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Dave Crocker
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Tim Chown
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Steve Crocker
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Tim Chown
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Ole Jacobsen
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Richard Shockey
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Stephen Farrell
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… John Levine
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Dave Crocker
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Dave Crocker
- Re: So, where to repeat? Melinda Shore
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Dave Crocker
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: management granularity (Re: Meeting "lounges"… Vinayak Hegde
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… John Levine
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… John Levine
- Re: management granularity (Re: Meeting "lounges"… SM
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Geoff Mulligan
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Geoff Mulligan
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Geoff Mulligan
- Re: So, where to repeat? Simon Perreault
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Yoav Nir
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
- Re: So, where to repeat? Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: So, where to repeat? Dave Crocker
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Dave Crocker
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: So, where to repeat? SM
- Re: So, where to repeat? John Levine
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Glen Zorn
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… Glen Zorn
- Re: So, where to repeat? Glen Zorn
- Re: So, where to repeat? Hector Santos
- Re: So, where to repeat? Ole Jacobsen
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management gran… t.p.
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Dave Crocker
- Re: So, where to repeat? Dave Crocker
- Re: So, where to repeat? Dave Crocker
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Yoav Nir
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Arturo Servin
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Dhruv Dhody
- Re: So, where to repeat? Michael Richardson
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Geoff Mulligan
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Geoff Mulligan
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Geoff Mulligan
- Re: So, where to repeat? Arturo Servin
- Re: So, where to repeat? Andy Newton
- Re: So, where to repeat? Dave Crocker
- Re: So, where to repeat? John C Klensin
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… John C Klensin
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Ole Jacobsen (ole)
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Dave Crocker
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: So, where to repeat? Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… John Levine
- Re: So, where to repeat? Michael Richardson
- Re: So, where to repeat? Geoff Mulligan
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management gra… Michael Richardson
- Re: So, where to repeat? Tim Bray
- Re: So, where to repeat? Ole Jacobsen
- RE: So, where to repeat? Richard Shockey
- Re: So, where to repeat? Yoav Nir
- Re: So, where to repeat? joel jaeggli
- RE: So, where to repeat? Richard Shockey
- RE: management granularity (Re: Meeting "lounges"… JOHNSON, ALASTAIR (ALASTAIR)
- Re: management granularity (Re: Meeting "lounges"… Brian E Carpenter