Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting cities
JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> Tue, 11 April 2017 11:11 UTC
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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 13:11:34 +0200
Subject: Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting cities
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
To: IETF Discussion <ietf@ietf.org>, iaoc@ietf.org
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Thread-Topic: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting cities
References: <E67FDB14-9895-48E0-A334-167172D322DB@nohats.ca> <20170403152624.GA11714@gsp.org> <93404c29-78ba-ff9b-9170-f5f2a5389a31@gmail.com> <E068F01A-B720-4E7A-A60F-AA5BDA22D535@consulintel.es> <20170404181505.GA4004@localhost> <CAAQiQRcvu-BfBA_NEqZwXsHEn6ujpa2=w7P5Vu2f6GLXjKqkcA@mail.gmail.com> <20170404202446.GB4004@localhost> <2987213d-075e-beff-64f8-d316709c404a@cs.tcd.ie> <20170404204617.GC16732@puck.nether.net> <3D4D193E-0D41-44DD-BB0C-E7741A7A2260@gmail.com> <20170404221042.GC4004@localhost> <7E834C8D-FCFB-48C4-925A-73B5FDEC60FD@consulintel.es>
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Can we get an answer from the IAOC to the questions below? If we cancel San Francisco, how much that is going to cost to the IETF for each of two planned meetings? Can we cancel the actual hotel contract considering the new US situation? If not, has this been considered for new contracts to avoid this problem? Otherwise there is any reason that can justify the lack of transparency in this? Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> Fecha: miércoles, 5 de abril de 2017, 10:26 Para: <iaoc@ietf.org> Asunto: Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting cities One important question here, same as we had in the case of Singapore. If we cancel San Francisco, how much that is going to cost to the IETF for each of two planned meetings? Furthermore, can the IAOC respond to this: Can we cancel the actual hotel contract considering the new US situation? If not, has this been considered for new contracts to avoid this problem? I think the relevant information in the contract need to be disclosed and have it now on the table, otherwise we will be wasting the time discussing possibilities that are actually impossible to assume for the IETF … My general position is: 1) I will prefer not cancelling already planned meetings. 2) I will prefer not “blocking” any regions or countries from future meetings, including US. 3) However, for already contracted meetings, if this is going to cost IETF thousands of dollars, we can’t afford that. 4) We must work with authorities to avoid people being banned for attending the meetings. Maybe I’ve missed responses to some of my answers already, in any case, can the IAOC provide urgently those with a complete summary of the situation? Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> Responder a: <lear@cisco.com> Fecha: miércoles, 5 de abril de 2017, 6:39 Para: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>, Yoav Nir <ynir.ietf@gmail.com> CC: IETF <ietf@ietf.org>, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> Asunto: Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting cities Nico, On 4/5/17 12:10 AM, Nico Williams wrote: > I do suspect that the U.S. will be a more difficult location for more > attendees than other locations. Certainly the news we all see is not > encouraging as to hosting IETF meetings in the U.S. This I don't deny. > Though it's also possible that this is becoming a self-reinforcing meme > and that we're just not seeing incidents in other countries in the news. > In any case, the U.S. certainly does not have a monopoly on the border > harasment business. Certainly people have had trouble getting into other countries, most notably Canada where an IAB member was refused entry. But this isn't just news. It is a series of declarations by the U.S. government of their intentions, and the IAOC has to plan ahead. That's why Jared's request for data is simply not tenable *at this stage*. If it turns out that things aren't so bad, the IAOC can react accordingly. However, as I wrote in my original email, there is now good reason to believe that things will get worse, due to the European Parliament’s decision to require visas from U.S. citizens. > Some people may wish to boycott the U.S. by refusing to host events > there. There is some precedent for such a boycott. For example, some > time back an obscure agency of the Texas state government decided to > guard its surplus budget by policing public drunkenness at hotel bars, > which led to a number of conferences pulling out of Texas, and the > ensuing bad PR led the legislature to rein in said agency. > > However, at the scale of a state/province the politics of boycotts is > generally not partisan, but at a national/global scale it tends to be > rankly partisan, and boycotts may not be productive and may be divisive, > and should be approached with care. Here "care" means: get some > evidence of negative impact on participation. We ALREADY have evidence, as some people couldn't make Chicago, and said so on this very list (and, by the way, were shamefully attacked and dismissed (no, it certainly wasn't you)). What we don't have is an understanding of the order of magnitude of the impact, and that is going to be very hard to gather in so fluid a situation with so long a lookahead. The point, by the way, as I see it, is not to punish the U.S. but to hold a successful meeting (that is what the mtgvenue draft states as well). > Reducing frequency of > U.S. meetings is not a boycott, and is something the IETF has been doing > for a long time anyways. Further reducing that frequency in the short > term would be perfectly fine, though it would also reduce opportunities > for gather the stats we really need to make a sound, non-partisan > decision to boycott if the stats warrant it. > Turn this around: suppose we do keep the meeting in San Francisco, for instance, and some number of people cannot get there for whatever reason, or cannot otherwise function on an equal footing. Would the IAOC then be attacked for having ignored the vast number of warnings that have been signaled? Eliot ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited.
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Carsten Bormann
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Rich Kulawiec
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Dave Crocker
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Loa Andersson
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Michael Richardson
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … John Leslie
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Michael Richardson
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Ted Lemon
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … joel jaeggli
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Michal Krsek
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Joel M. Halpern
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … nalini.elkins
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Stewart Bryant
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Fernando Gont
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Michal Krsek
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Dave Crocker
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Fernando Gont
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Michael Richardson
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Christian Hopps
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … nalini.elkins
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Michael Richardson
- Re: Structure of IETF meeting weeks Stephen Farrell
- Re: Structure of IETF meeting weeks Brian E Carpenter
- Structure of IETF meeting weeks (was: Re: IAOC re… Stephen Farrell
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Toerless Eckert
- Re: Structure of IETF meeting weeks (was: Re: IAO… 'Toerless Eckert'
- Re: Structure of IETF meeting weeks (was: Re: IAO… Bob Hinden
- Re: Structure of IETF meeting weeks (was: Re: IAO… Toerless Eckert
- RE: Structure of IETF meeting weeks (was: Re: IAO… Tobias Gondrom
- Re: Structure of IETF meeting weeks Dave Crocker
- Re: Structure of IETF meeting weeks Ted Lemon
- Re: Structure of IETF meeting weeks Aaron Falk
- Re: Structure of IETF meeting weeks Dave Crocker
- Re: Structure of IETF meeting weeks joel jaeggli
- Re: Structure of IETF meeting weeks Eliot Lear
- Re: Structure of IETF meeting weeks joel jaeggli
- Re: Structure of IETF meeting weeks Dave Crocker
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Structure of IETF meeting weeks (was: Re: IAO… Michael Richardson
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Michael Richardson
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Eliot Lear
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Laurent Ciavaglia
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Bob Hinden
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Randy Bush
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Eliot Lear
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … tom p.
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Paul Wouters
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Ross Finlayson
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Stewart Bryant
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Rich Kulawiec
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- RE: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Adrian Farrel
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Christian Huitema
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Sarah B
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … tom p.
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Nico Williams
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Andrew Newton
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Nico Williams
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Stephen Farrell
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Jared Mauch
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Andrew Newton
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Yoav Nir
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Carsten Bormann
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Rich Kulawiec
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Eliot Lear
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Nico Williams
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Nico Williams
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Jared Mauch
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Melinda Shore
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … mike stJohns
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Andrew G. Malis
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Melinda Shore
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … james woodyatt
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … John Levine
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Jared Mauch
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Eliot Lear
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Carsten Bormann
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Christer Holmberg
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Dick Franks
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Rich Kulawiec
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Carsten Bormann
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Stewart Bryant
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Rich Kulawiec
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Michael Richardson
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Michael Richardson
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … mike stJohns
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Michael StJohns
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Bob Hinden
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Michael StJohns
- RE: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Andrew Allen
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Benjamin Damm
- Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting … Nico Williams
- Re: [IAOC] IAOC requesting input on (potential) m… Leslie Daigle