RE: BCP97bis

John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Mon, 18 October 2021 13:55 UTC

Return-Path: <john-ietf@jck.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 510203A0E68 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 06:55:30 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FdkZ-8KKMjRJ for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 06:55:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12BAC3A13E7 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 06:55:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from <john-ietf@jck.com>) id 1mcT6l-000PBD-CR; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 09:55:19 -0400
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 09:55:13 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: ned+ietf@mauve.mrochek.com, Larry Masinter <LMM@acm.org>
cc: 'Michael Richardson' <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, 'IETF' <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: BCP97bis
Message-ID: <9509675E82588103BD336B24@PSB>
In-Reply-To: <01S53VFTRVD6005PTU@mauve.mrochek.com>
References: <CAL0qLwbwvs2Cp_urgJ=hzc6yEMGDaz3C0xf6RQXRrB89wAx=Rw@mail.gmail.com> <CAL0qLwavK5dYdmYPVxdMT5rA=jBZv1cEyAsVBEWOD7p9MoZR1g@mail.gmail.c om> <C657F78F-FF99-4898-8A08-844B32589DDE@vigilsec.com> <CAL0qLwbLqyWSqFGL2x-FpXXD19QG9-eZkrnTVm_fxt3tUfZSgg@mail.gmail.com> <C92D456E-63ED-453B-8F33-3AAECA40D1DA@vigilsec.com> <27721119-D39D-427D-8EEE-C5027DA15B06@akamai.com> <007c01d7c2dc$9090c780$b1b25680$@acm.org> <5385fd6f-b7a7-3baa-1374-f4d8d87216fd@joelhalpern.com> <6454.1634428177@localhost> <6702b78c-037f-f5fd-78a6-901a999dab54@gmail.com> <00cf01d7c2f5$3a43fff0$aecbffd0$@acm.org> <01S53VFTRVD6005PTU@mauve.mrochek.com>
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/j_0pRca5BQ90lM62Td13lZz4ZRM>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 13:55:30 -0000


--On Monday, October 18, 2021 05:49 -0700
ned+ietf@mauve.mrochek.com wrote:

>...
> Speaking as a media type reviewer, I require free access to
> the relevant standards before I'll review a media type in the
> standards tree. This has led various special arrangements to
> access specifications that would otherwise cost $$$.

Presumably, if someone lent you a copy for the duration of your
review process, that would suffice.  Correct?

We had some discussions a long time about about the RFC Editor
requiring copies of everything outside the RFC Series that was
normatively referenced and then maintaining their own
repository.  For better or worse, the idea never went anywhere
but it would have made all of these documents freely available
and reading them free if only one could get to Marina del Rey or
somewhere on the USC campus.  Easier for you than for me, I
suppose :-).

> Note that this doesn't mean that free access is required for
> everyone. The requirements for media types in the standards
> tree are that there be a  stable, publicly available
> specification. Free availability is not part of it.

Right.  And there is a huge difference between one copy,
available without cost to a media type reviewer, perhaps for a
limited time and, e.g., requiring that copies be distributed to,
or otherwise available for free to, the entire IESG, the
document shepherd, the relevant WG, and potentially anyone who
might want to do a Last Call review.  

We need to be very careful about how we define and scope
requirements in this area.

>...
> While I'm not aware of it happening, it's theoretically
> possible for a standards organization to fail and take all of
> its specifications with it, just like any other organization.
>...

Yes, but if the work of that standards organization was widely
enough used that we should have taken them seriously in the
first place, there would presumably be copies of the relevant
documents in libraries and other repositories all over the
world.  Having the SDO fail would be very bad for any
expectations about maintenance of those documents and probably
for their credibility but would have little impact on
availability of archival copies.

     john