Re: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF)

Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmailteam.com> Wed, 24 February 2021 11:47 UTC

Return-Path: <brong@fastmailteam.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDE2C3A1468 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 03:47:05 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fastmailteam.com header.b=OZsMuuE3; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=m2KotZlh
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZB_2PADb5Gc7 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 03:47:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 956213A1467 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 03:47:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24F73472 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 06:47:03 -0500 (EST)
Received: from imap7 ([10.202.2.57]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 24 Feb 2021 06:47:03 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= fastmailteam.com; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to :references:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s=fm2; bh=8vPCkuJ ba1GsFf6Cd8fEJgntL+Fl44LEGAhFacDPvi8=; b=OZsMuuE3Yd7INV8c8kGKwto N+VDpUtgnKKUu2epdQ1UDPU7/iaX88miDC+tYz1I4gLBic5t/9AmyspIVhNCZEtW vCWXNi8te3VTbuCvZm7YqIg1awlaKOMyT7AYsjmqSJqPZ/eDNirybpD2/PQwTAum AcPAlrGUpq3h8TLYIy7X8n7dOXnrWhfJaOBkiNY0dUS40hDfj5RA3hk0W66w84KZ 34AkucYGnmRDCI55iyZZ7OrRuNlgERqwNGzWdmtifd+ObkWWJKCHqWqk2qxOjmwd nxDAZlKgMoWJ4DQZIBcK+KH9clgMnMjlO/EACGBgyGjanwuVh6qiPEuq0RLIexw= =
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=8vPCku Jba1GsFf6Cd8fEJgntL+Fl44LEGAhFacDPvi8=; b=m2KotZlhaEcDWT655wKVdN pSGrDqMF5t50lqi2EpjFrNs/byg2MJr6VbMdjN7+qd0VxTYwKmDjMWzEiTM5H7Lk rXtDCeLm12bhxH/ikQA83Ii2JcH2tEnzor47N5m+XwmFdw51zDU4u3VeThTxo7EJ QsexLZtLTvp2qcfZ0YidRTS5IPOYHtFp1lwLbQQgMoYnC0HzRhqRc7nV9f1gSrY2 Q/NC6vm0IbLhvBwRduQoClxPTCGLiMrOZG/D0OArqBzibmA0OCuhJMESzQkH5nrN 23QJB9kb6Hp9Bubdak1V54g1LCc0kXok2PeW2FjF4RA09O77N9PaImez5NZEEXEQ ==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:tTw2YDfAsLikbIzAvDhS9W7NysSLYzQoaSUyW9peGrPS7edSnYhUUA> <xme:tTw2YJNdnZw2r7NT4qwXFioYrWgkfzkRCgc5N2noCdWVR1c6BvPE1QNaHUUq3V3qZ UPySTCTU0g>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrkeejgdefudcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesrgdtre erreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdeurhhonhcuifhonhgufigrnhgrfdcuoegsrhhonhhgsehf rghsthhmrghilhhtvggrmhdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvdduueeihefgvd ehueeujeejuedugfeigfevteefleetfeffgfdtjeejgfeuuddvnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepsghrohhnghesfhgrshhtmhgrih hlthgvrghmrdgtohhm
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:tTw2YMhB98U0SaBqPE3b8f1MWXK-6DHhMypWYTRDZ544wVSlHff63Q> <xmx:tTw2YE8epMjAwZv63xnLaWpkaGydctvtkCl85e6sqwGb-LcKfS8Zkw> <xmx:tTw2YPulM5D2OEuolRSCw4sBwCGnyaq8Ts4n5SGq0iqCgyQNFQucBA> <xmx:tjw2YN5abhPEimtpwfCfS0qW9TnMXK5ZmcA6g1DivvnFI0ZfioF1fA>
Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 9B5793605A4; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 06:47:01 -0500 (EST)
X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface
User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-179-g81f7aba968-fm-20210222.002-g81f7aba9
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <27444663-f39a-4a05-8e5d-074ccb0ab2b1@www.fastmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <a96a19fd-8efb-5805-2b22-96aa849d75aa@network-heretics.com>
References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <AM0PR08MB37168C83CF19A3CDFEF15FD8FA809@AM0PR08MB3716.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <AM0PR08MB371640432AA23B27BB2D948DFA9F9@AM0PR08MB3716.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <a96a19fd-8efb-5805-2b22-96aa849d75aa@network-heretics.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:46:39 +1100
From: "Bron Gondwana" <brong@fastmailteam.com>
To: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=46fcd5bd9a344875b38331bb6f762b46
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/jgHjTfGXdmer-TCP7Sggfp8rQ8A>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 11:47:06 -0000

On Wed, Feb 24, 2021, at 20:46, Keith Moore wrote:
> p.s. among other kinds of "doers" whose clue might benefit IETF work, I 
> might suggest people who understand how to make effective configuration 
> and user interfaces.    Especially in the area of security but not 
> exclusively so.   Ease of configuration and use are some of the 
> important reasons why proprietary solutions succeed over standard 
> solutions.   I'm not saying that IETF should specify user interfaces but 
> rather that protocols need to be designed with ease of configuration and 
> use in mind.

Oh for sure - considering user use-cases first and foremost is vital for having decent specifications.  This is a group that's even harder to attract to something like the IETF (and harder to keep, particularly if their knowledge gets swatted down by people who don't see the value).

... despite all this negative comment, I've got to say that the IETF generally produces better specs in a lot of way (including usability) than many proprietary APIs I've had the displeasure of interacting with, so for all that we could be better - we're pretty bloody good already.  Yay.

Bron.

--
  Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
  brong@fastmailteam.com