Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users
Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> Wed, 16 March 2016 18:55 UTC
Return-Path: <adam@nostrum.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B99D12D64F for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 16 Mar 2016 11:55:53 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.901
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o57y_Pfc3100 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 16 Mar 2016 11:55:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A639E12D5EE for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 16 Mar 2016 11:55:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from Svantevit.roach.at (cpe-70-122-154-80.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.154.80]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id u2GItbQW026818 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 16 Mar 2016 13:55:45 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com)
X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-70-122-154-80.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.154.80] claimed to be Svantevit.roach.at
Subject: Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users
To: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>
References: <20160313143521.GC26841@Hirasawa> <m2a8m0y72q.wl%randy@psg.com> <F04B3B85-6B14-43BA-9A21-FC0A31E79065@piuha.net> <56E7E09D.7040100@cisco.com> <4349AFDD-350C-4217-9BEE-3DBD2F608F95@nohats.ca> <27177.1458050662@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <m2k2l3qud5.wl%randy@psg.com> <56E90304.3050407@cisco.com> <m2bn6eq59r.wl%randy@psg.com> <56E904A7.80200@cisco.com> <m2a8lyq4ud.wl%randy@psg.com> <56E90BF9.4090306@cisco.com>
From: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
Message-ID: <56E9AC23.8060109@nostrum.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 13:55:31 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <56E90BF9.4090306@cisco.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/jt0MVGlgFBYsgPJm8b3S339I2KI>
Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, IETF Disgust List <ietf@ietf.org>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 18:55:53 -0000
On 3/16/16 2:32 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > To my knowledge nobody else has raised the concern that that > the Tor people are raising, and so we are being asked to specifically > support Tor. Fine. That means we then need to consider the > benefit/harm of our actions regarding who precisely we are helping. I > asked that question honestly without an answer, but with concerns. It's a little off topic, but I'll bite. I'm only replying in the hope that we can get past the sidelong aspersions that imply that these users are somehow undeserving of access. This FAQ gives information in a far more thoughtful and comprehensive way than I could have hoped to regarding the users who make use of the TOR network: https://www.torproject.org/about/torusers.html.en One of the less obvious things, though, is that switching back and forth between Tor and normal browsing on the same machine opens you up to certain fingerprinting attacks (cf. https://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/unsanctioned-tracking/#limitations-of-technical-solutions). These attacks can allow determined adversaries to correlate your "regular" traffic with your Tor-routed traffic. These are mostly state-level actors, although some non-state institutions have demonstrated the ability to unmask Tor traffic using this class of technique. So, in particular, the people you're blocking when you make Tor access impossible or difficult, are frequently going to be the ones who risk persecution, imprisonment, or death if they're discovered. Think human rights activists, citizen journalists, and anonymous whistleblowers in oppressive regimes. They're the ones who literally *cannot* afford to turn Tor off. /a
- ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Yui Hirasawa
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Randy Bush
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users John Levine
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Andrew Sullivan
- RE: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Michel Py
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Narelle
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Yoav Nir
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Randy Bush
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Leif Johansson
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Jari Arkko
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Jari Arkko
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Paul Wouters
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Leif Johansson
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Eliot Lear
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Christian de Larrinaga
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Eliot Lear
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Alec Muffett
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Stephen Farrell
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Rich Kulawiec
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Eliot Lear
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Jari Arkko
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Christian de Larrinaga
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Stephen Farrell
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Leif Johansson
- RE: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Ted Lemon
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Alec Muffett
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users John R Levine
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Christian de Larrinaga
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users John Kristoff
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Antonio Prado
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users John R Levine
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Rich Kulawiec
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Randy Bush
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Eliot Lear
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Alec Muffett
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Leif Johansson
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Alec Muffett
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Michael Richardson
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Michael Richardson
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Eliot Lear
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Randy Bush
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Stephen Farrell
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Tim Chown
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users John Levine
- RE: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Michel Py
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Leif Johansson
- RE: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Michel Py
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Alec Muffett
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Rich Kulawiec
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users John R Levine
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Theodore V Faber
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users John Kristoff
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users John R Levine
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Leif Johansson
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Randy Bush
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Randy Bush
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users lloyd.wood
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Leif Johansson
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Eliot Lear
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Randy Bush
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Eliot Lear
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Randy Bush
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Eliot Lear
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users lloyd.wood
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Warren Kumari
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Dave Cridland
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Leif Johansson
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Rich Kulawiec
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Randy Bush
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Paul Wouters
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Jari Arkko
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Jari Arkko
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Rich Kulawiec
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Adam Roach
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Michael StJohns
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Eliot Lear
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Adam Roach
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Eliot Lear
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Adam Roach
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Linus Nordberg
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Michael StJohns
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Adam Roach
- RE: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Tony Hain
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Rich Kulawiec
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Michael StJohns
- RE: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Michel Py
- RE: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Michel Py
- RE: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users John C Klensin
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Adam Roach
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Stephen Farrell
- RE: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Tony Hain
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Michael StJohns
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Michael StJohns
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Randy Bush
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Warren Kumari
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Leif Johansson
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Leif Johansson
- Re: ietf.org end-to-end principle Stefan Winter
- Re: ietf.org end-to-end principle Stefan Winter
- RE: ietf.org end-to-end principle Varma, Eve (Nokia - US)
- Re: ietf.org end-to-end principle DIEGO LOPEZ GARCIA
- Re: ietf.org end-to-end principle Stephen Farrell
- Re: ietf.org end-to-end principle DIEGO LOPEZ GARCIA
- Re: ietf.org unaccessible for Tor users Linus Nordberg
- Re: ietf.org end-to-end principle Jari Arkko
- Re: ietf.org end-to-end principle Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: ietf.org end-to-end principle Stefan Winter
- RE: ietf.org end-to-end principle Josh Howlett
- RE: ietf.org end-to-end principle Josh Howlett
- Re: ietf.org end-to-end principle Melinda Shore
- Re: ietf.org end-to-end principle joel jaeggli
- Re: ietf.org end-to-end principle Eliot Lear
- Re: ietf.org end-to-end principle lloyd.wood
- Re: ietf.org end-to-end principle Leif Johansson
- RE: ietf.org end-to-end principle Josh Howlett
- Re: ietf.org end-to-end principle joel jaeggli
- Re: ietf.org end-to-end principle Dave Crocker
- Re: ietf.org end-to-end principle Jari Arkko
- Re: ietf.org end-to-end principle DIEGO LOPEZ GARCIA
- RE: ietf.org end-to-end principle Hui Deng
- Re: ietf.org end-to-end principle Joe Touch