Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ?

John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net> Tue, 27 October 2020 18:09 UTC

Return-Path: <jgs@juniper.net>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3E23A0E0F; Tue, 27 Oct 2020 11:09:37 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.097
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net header.b=ONXiJzpd; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=juniper.net header.b=gPzPKepy
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id umHrpOKiKJP4; Tue, 27 Oct 2020 11:09:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com [208.84.65.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF1B23A0E01; Tue, 27 Oct 2020 11:09:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from pps.filterd (m0108158.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 09RHvMd8030615; Tue, 27 Oct 2020 11:09:26 -0700
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : mime-version; s=PPS1017; bh=fce38Qy12j7XjyzNR7dgvOATZEk5BE1Q4n/o+e2ROl0=; b=ONXiJzpdtEn9+QURvzLsQ6AUO611GPC5R1RFdRINdmwbgXiqxx4wqSNgmAlyGzCg3GQf 1WfMQm+Htth9mJ0sy8laPnSIwbGSrrP8ocK8BVob+xi8meTGY6I3+or2rMCgYo+2i7TY HiU2I8PNfSnXOZlwYnmavZQm7TLhujMUsk8bQ2YTV+OXnK1ogHcatmnQKyq99p5xSVoo QZ2A1IAOnYp7irFl9bEhFdMfOmu/uBVEft5KWvkpPoT+2Nc0OpXnyKnSKr7+4lh7sxIz 0/wIjeD0StiXD28jdxyiH7m1Bzfah1Dbz0ao8XjwSIrgFyGdGrVfSEemOJXPBYjN3DPQ mw==
Received: from nam02-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2nam02lp2051.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.38.51]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 34cfypw5jt-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 27 Oct 2020 11:09:26 -0700
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=YaA6yoqQJ+9EwcuXSFI1YSjUxwHSiGGYbs9EPFfOPZJb2/IeDs4jImkkpfs7sqpOh9DXYSFLU/kofq7NmzDcHImHY/0whWJ0eAQr0sEZvH1uHLJ6gO/i1b+AN7EvR1xOtYh6YjbYn0xeFWFKH/eaDF58xdf/TJO+5eUd1gWwZrYNMCB8A/mlbPwfA+BwPOP/zDs3kYM/tB3vNDbz++QAL5XIHWmQsge2/RG8hZdYlMU8Y42KZ3CUKXDcCAWqTSVmXMByiPKvH5JtcUcyg8xc0a/DlieH9xp4VCKnsOxrMNuJWN77kw1eBHIxlE3C7gEF7/4FwBmw6QkAIev771vzxw==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=fce38Qy12j7XjyzNR7dgvOATZEk5BE1Q4n/o+e2ROl0=; b=aQX1qmIXx8NnscZWqmYlG4ZuT9OjC9LyS4L7+lfRKXU2b3m0YqN3hz4PlbG5o8Ax7g4oJBtSlPi5+4+9CgP0aKTt2HFZ4gl987ehId3vb93btRSm4zSLQAVoluBriG6sOWtGunqw5dOzXKdwr293Oj79nzYb3HQPR2NbxNssShORz/EpCy1Svxnkco41ktI+wMvgHIlDGKgrDWT6aJAimlcm+9smbO1hCVy4fQ5H+5z1dvs971iRKOI/1hSsfVtiGJOKTqpP45iuDpl2uQQ7tl7NtjHlZwc3gVLddg/DDWahCYGTJCQGi2rbnpBadV6FwuBYJsj9uyMk7gAxXGkI+A==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=juniper.net; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=juniper.net; dkim=pass header.d=juniper.net; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=fce38Qy12j7XjyzNR7dgvOATZEk5BE1Q4n/o+e2ROl0=; b=gPzPKepyINIpXo5PC6IzcLSIXsk5yjQ2BfZ46DpFFlEvn0iHk/VKGKLM16LPsr5ZaF+ADg9g4ETDw4Jm/hPc+ZVPvfn2T3RnROWmcQlhCsj26rqUGqu+FXwosaHNPcOZR93BU+SjTZOIGpQRwUL+IFOysE1i48SJPvdh28Hl1/g=
Received: from MN2PR05MB6109.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:c4::20) by MN2PR05MB6383.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:d7::33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3499.4; Tue, 27 Oct 2020 18:09:22 +0000
Received: from MN2PR05MB6109.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d98c:bc2d:3620:9b38]) by MN2PR05MB6109.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d98c:bc2d:3620:9b38%4]) with mapi id 15.20.3499.017; Tue, 27 Oct 2020 18:09:22 +0000
From: John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net>
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
CC: EXT - randy <randy@psg.com>, "rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org" <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>, "rsoc@iab.org" <rsoc@iab.org>, IETF Rinse Repeat <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ?
Thread-Topic: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ?
Thread-Index: AQHWq8nMCYpO5VS1YEG8krmFqjboKKmqYm8AgAFVzgCAAAEzgIAAA3BFgAABbICAAAK4UA==
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 18:09:22 +0000
Message-ID: <34D4704E-5339-4A99-B537-91EC21656A1F@juniper.net>
References: <20201026020433.GA19475@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <CADaq8je8gMwAkOndTNJ9ndwzOZb2HQMZrCUJ5wNUjw-6ax9QtA@mail.gmail.com> <35EFE952-7786-4E24-B228-9BEE51D3C876@tzi.org> <20201026150241.GK48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20201026162814.GP39170@kduck.mit.edu> <20201026164036.GO48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <1a56dc3b-56ef-3ffb-a12b-44d5e0d0f835@levkowetz.com> <20201026171931.GP48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <b733240-fc78-5a71-8920-ff84fbf64287@iecc.com> <20201026180105.GQ48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <03976f9f-7f49-7bf7-ce29-ee989232a44d@gmail.com> <7FA8EF59-5CDE-42B9-A487-520531EEA1F0@juniper.net> <m2sg9z1seh.wl-randy@psg.com> <3DC65259-20A7-4AFA-BC24-604AB184081E@fugue.com> <7AEF79AB-8CDF-4414-BBB8-D1EA9716F82F@juniper.net>, <D0067A1E-2C86-4174-9344-9887120BA37E@fugue.com>
In-Reply-To: <D0067A1E-2C86-4174-9344-9887120BA37E@fugue.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: psg.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;psg.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=juniper.net;
x-originating-ip: [162.225.191.192]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: fb67046b-6f76-401a-1236-08d87aa36eb9
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR05MB6383:
x-ld-processed: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4,ExtAddr
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <MN2PR05MB638363ACF2C5975BF0350B75AA160@MN2PR05MB6383.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000;
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: ATFRdda2ZvQKvyFRcW2rO/wiNDIdc3+Nd5z7yx+qtBvMvT1mBAKfBVFnci2V9DQ6D9F2m33C6JIGvJTnmIATvz+uvVifAkoGZac9wZ85EfIaCeuYzx9aRkzq2a5bDIXdGZofrJvJGb4XFyafWeR8ZXlyE0wlJ/py8A6hYxoqw7pl4N0Bc9p7G9ZrAbnmbPdFM+dxOv5kHILwzLcv446lYMq7d90BdTR0nNdeYP3XS987yTm8DOc1fRclY981wauKNYKKsZPp4EfHgCroAsrlXkObONQSaL4qQEzbAilr9pd6+gSdwDBTPJVa8h4KH0T8bHTdb5qNz5h5nQCjqGZ+3w==
x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:MN2PR05MB6109.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(396003)(346002)(376002)(366004)(136003)(39860400002)(71200400001)(316002)(86362001)(8936002)(64756008)(66556008)(5660300002)(6512007)(76116006)(53546011)(66476007)(36756003)(6506007)(26005)(54906003)(8676002)(478600001)(91956017)(6916009)(2616005)(66446008)(186003)(66946007)(33656002)(4326008)(2906002)(6486002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102;
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 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
x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_34D4704E53394A99B53791EC21656A1Fjunipernet_"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR05MB6109.namprd05.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: fb67046b-6f76-401a-1236-08d87aa36eb9
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 27 Oct 2020 18:09:22.7166 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: T8wgil/2BMSXMw7ZevsMULK9BqFzYzToG9MbvboZJ/4GDhrDr2kpdhfkMiv33eLB
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR05MB6383
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.312, 18.0.737 definitions=2020-10-27_10:2020-10-26, 2020-10-27 signatures=0
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 priorityscore=1501 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 lowpriorityscore=0 clxscore=1015 impostorscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2010270107
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/kcO0IWL8QMoCbxM5NwdDnrdkMkM>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 18:09:38 -0000

On Oct 27, 2020, at 1:59 PM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:

On Oct 27, 2020, at 1:54 PM, John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net<mailto:jgs@juniper.net>> wrote:
So far, nobody has even attempted to justify this directive, although a zoo of straw men has been paraded through the subsequent follow ups.

Actually, John, I have explained the reasoning behind this twice, as have several other people. If the IETF provides a pagination tool, then people will use it and assume that the page numbers rendered in their version of the document are good to use in referencing the document.

Whether this is a valid concern or not, I can’t say, but that is the justification.

Fair enough. I think this was lost on me for two reasons. The first is the use of the term “pagination”, which means something different from “creation of a table of contents” (I just looked it up to be sure), although admittedly you can’t make a usable ToC unless the document is paginated first. The second is that I didn’t actually imagine it could be seen as a plausible reason to prevent people from producing their own unofficial versions in the privacy of their homes. I stand corrected.

Needless to say, the concern does not seem valid to me.

—John