Re: What is going wrong? Was: A sad farewell
Masataka Ohta <mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> Thu, 12 November 2020 14:59 UTC
Return-Path: <mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F5193A118F for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 06:59:48 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wpl01irABmCi for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 06:59:45 -0800 (PST)
Received: from necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp (necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp [131.112.32.132]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 893AD3A1192 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 06:59:44 -0800 (PST)
Received: (qmail 75039 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2020 14:39:53 -0000
Received: from necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (131.112.32.132) by necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp with SMTP; 12 Nov 2020 14:39:53 -0000
Subject: Re: What is going wrong? Was: A sad farewell
To: Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>
Cc: IETF Discussion Mailing List <ietf@ietf.org>
References: <E971F6B0-EFF1-4E1D-8CCB-80FA7FEB722D@gmail.com> <6B539496-AD2F-43FE-A322-40103890C88A@yahoo.co.uk> <a6574bb8-d1e5-5eee-1228-a2e0a48b2f08@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <CAMm+LwjS+Aa-gpMrfjOv7HJsqfNgqwZi8cjZ3kjELgUpBDrQ2w@mail.gmail.com>
From: Masataka Ohta <mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <10f5de3b-37fa-3618-cd09-4ee0a598846e@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 23:59:44 +0900
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.2
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CAMm+LwjS+Aa-gpMrfjOv7HJsqfNgqwZi8cjZ3kjELgUpBDrQ2w@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp"; format="flowed"; delsp="yes"
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/kyqSWMFvYjox4DIQzKJ9mJckVMQ>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 14:59:49 -0000
Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > The response below misrepresents the situation completely. Henrik was > working on the new RFC tooling for the HTML format. From what I see, most > participants approve of what they see as improvements. As usual, you misunderstand my points completely. And, I'm afraid that is your problem. As I wrote: > Those incidents should be caused by people who want to change > perfectly working situations toward worst possible situations, > because they want to say that they have performed some work. "perfectly working situations" mean tools managed by Henrik, which is replaced by layers of committees, which is the worst possible way to perform real works, as you can see recent gotcha on ftp service by IETF. > The issue that I see pervasively in IETF is a system in which people have > authority but not accountability. That is certainly a problem to rely on layers of committees but is a minor problem. If members of a committee refuse to be responsible to their wrong decisions, person who organized the committee should be accused. > So people insist on being the one to make > a decision that they can never take because there is no clear indication of > what participants want. Wrong. As most users do not know what they need, it is wrong to modify tools based on what users want. Instead, real experts know what users needs. It is sometimes (or, often) against expressed intentions of users. That's how good tools have been developed. For example, iPhone was developed by Steve Jobs before users wanted it. However, collective stupidity of committees just conclude that their, often wrong, ideas on what users want are what are necessary for users, which is the problem of current IETF. Masataka Ohta
- Re: A sad farewell Russ Housley
- A sad farewell Henrik Levkowetz
- Re: A sad farewell Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: A sad farewell Alissa Cooper
- RE: A sad farewell Ron Bonica
- Re: A sad farewell Barry Leiba
- Re: A sad farewell Suresh Krishnan
- Re: A sad farewell Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: A sad farewell Toerless Eckert
- Re: A sad farewell Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: A sad farewell Keith Moore
- Re: A sad farewell JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: A sad farewell Stephen Farrell
- Re: A sad farewell Daniel Migault
- Re: A sad farewell S Moonesamy
- Re: A sad farewell Charlie Perkins
- Re: A sad farewell Jay Daley
- Re: A sad farewell Loa Andersson
- Re: A sad farewell Soininen, Jonne (Nokia - FI/Espoo)
- Re: A sad farewell Dirk Kutscher
- Re: A sad farewell Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: A sad farewell Carsten Bormann
- Re: A sad farewell Lloyd W
- Re: A sad farewell Leif Johansson
- Re: A sad farewell Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: A sad farewell Julian Reschke
- Re: A sad farewell Ralph Droms
- Re: A sad farewell Brian E Carpenter
- Re: A sad farewell Benoit Claise
- Re: A sad farewell Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: A sad farewell Keith Moore
- Re: A sad farewell Joseph Touch
- Re: A sad farewell Jim Fenton
- Re: A sad farewell Alia Atlas
- RE: A sad farewell Valery Smyslov
- WAIT. Take a moment. Re: A sad farewell Eliot Lear
- Re: WAIT. Take a moment. Re: A sad farewell Alexander Pelov
- Re: WAIT. Take a moment. Re: A sad farewell Carsten Bormann
- Re: WAIT. Take a moment. Re: A sad farewell Henrik Levkowetz
- Re: A sad farewell Henrik Levkowetz
- Re: A sad farewell Mehmet Ersue
- RE: A sad farewell Eric Gray
- Re: A sad farewell Stewart Bryant
- Re: A sad farewell Theodore Y. Ts'o
- Re: A sad farewell Leif Johansson
- Re: A sad farewell Larry Masinter
- Re: A sad farewell Leif Johansson
- Re: A sad farewell Pete Resnick
- Re: A sad farewell Carsten Bormann
- Re: A sad farewell Joe Touch
- Re: A sad farewell Joel M. Halpern
- Re: A sad farewell Larry Masinter
- Re: A sad farewell Jay Daley
- Re: A sad farewell Joseph Touch
- Re: A sad farewell Larry Masinter
- Re: A sad farewell Brian E Carpenter
- Re: A sad farewell Jay Daley
- Re: A sad farewell Salz, Rich
- Re: A sad farewell Larry Masinter
- Re: A sad farewell Salz, Rich
- Re: A sad farewell Salz, Rich
- Re: A sad farewell Larry Masinter
- Re: A sad farewell Joseph Touch
- Re: A sad farewell Keith Moore
- Re: A sad farewell Masataka Ohta
- Re: A sad farewell Joseph Touch
- Re: A sad farewell Lloyd W
- Re: A sad farewell Leif Johansson
- discussion of tools and requirements Re: A sad fa… Amelia Andersdotter
- Re: A sad farewell Fernando Gont
- Re: A sad farewell Livingood, Jason
- Re: A sad farewell Livingood, Jason
- RE: A sad farewell Adrian Farrel
- Re: A sad farewell Livingood, Jason
- Re: A sad farewell Fernando Gont
- Re: A sad farewell Alissa Cooper
- Re: A sad farewell Salz, Rich
- Document diffs... Re: A sad farewell Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Document diffs... Re: A sad farewell Joseph Touch
- Re: Document diffs... Re: A sad farewell Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: A sad farewell tom petch
- Re: Document diffs... Re: A sad farewell Joseph Touch
- Re: A sad farewell Russ Housley
- Why we have situated software (Re: A sad farewell) Carsten Bormann
- Re: Why we have situated software (Re: A sad fare… Pete Resnick
- Why we have situated software (Re: A sad farewell) Carsten Bormann
- Re: Document diffs... Re: A sad farewell Carsten Bormann
- Re: A sad farewell Donald Eastlake
- and... text for the win Michael Richardson
- Re: and... text for the win John Levine
- Re: and... text for the win Carsten Bormann
- Re: and... text for the win Julian Reschke
- Re: and... text for the win Christian Huitema
- Re: and... text for the win Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: and... text for the win Carsten Bormann
- Re: and... text for the win Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: and... text for the win Charlie Perkins
- Re: A sad farewell Masataka Ohta
- What is going wrong? Was: A sad farewell Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: What is going wrong? Was: A sad farewell Masataka Ohta