Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon need updating
Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Mon, 08 June 2020 20:57 UTC
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Subject: Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon need updating
To: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>, Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com>
Cc: "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>
References: <2C425F1E-2E12-4E47-ACEC-AF4C4A93FA3E@akamai.com> <140429ad-af8b-e03f-a641-1e78b6056fa4@mtcc.com> <D55AFBFD-0D59-4176-B6BD-D6A1801FEC2C@akamai.com> <f42134de-3d0f-87e5-b13f-82afdb3689c9@mtcc.com> <96c65ca8-6ed5-2afa-a6d5-14905fc75ce8@foobar.org> <8946c5bf-0f6b-7a52-6326-dda59a78a798@mtcc.com> <995f5e46-b79a-ec9a-5465-9ec5abcdb759@foobar.org> <9d18c630-8506-9097-fc8c-86d6264afcbe@mtcc.com> <1783a7fa-fed4-2973-05dd-236f1120a74c@foobar.org> <5bf95457-5d44-86fa-5062-800680cc5a6a@mtcc.com> <20200608190220.GA18021@localhost>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9e0425e8-dffb-78a6-2520-c9214392caf7@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 08:57:00 +1200
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On 09-Jun-20 07:02, Nico Williams wrote: > On Mon, Jun 08, 2020 at 11:23:09AM -0700, Michael Thomas wrote: >> ssl had the advantage that it 1) beat ipsec to market, and 2) wasn't subject >> to API differences from OS layer calls like IPsec was, and with quite a bit >> of churn as i recall too. it's really too bad, imo. we wouldn't have had to >> do the contortions of dtls, for example. and now there's this problem. none >> of them are earth shattering, but it would have been cleaner. > > You can sprinkle TLS anywhere you have an octet stream. You can > sprinkle DTLS anywhere you have datagram flows. Unless someone says "multicast". Brian > No need for OS support > -- it will just work. IPsec? IPsec requires OS support. > > Also, IPsec got a lot of things wrong. It's simply not usable at > Internet scale as originally intended because... it's IP-layer, so it > deals in discrete packets and IP addresses. Well, discrete packets do > not define application connections/sessions[*], IP addresses are too > dynamic and useless for authentication and authorization[**], and > configuration is ETOOHARD. > > As you can see, a dozen years ago was already too late, but our idea > then was to > > - construct protection guarantees for packet flows using IPsec, > - to use anonymous or anonymous-like key exchanges to key IPsec, > - and to use channel binding from application layer protocols that can > authenticate more useful names than IP addresses. > > Nico > > > [*] In the IPsec architecture, RFC 4301, there is no guarantee that the > packets making up a TCP connection, say, will have anything like > similar protection for the lifetime of the TCP connection. > Everything about how a TCP conenction is protected by IPsec depends > entirely on *configuration* with no standard interfaces _at all_ for > applications to manipulate said configuration. > > [**] Yes, in RFC 4301 you're supposed to specify things like trust > anchors and policies like "any peer with a certificate from this CA > can _claim_ IP addresses in the following prefixes/ranges". This > _cannot_ scale to Internet scale. > > Giving up on authentication and authorization in the RFC 4301 > scheme (BTNS, RFC 5387) and constructing logical packet flows with > consistent protection during their lifetimes (RFC 5660), fixes the > problem. It didn't get implemented -- even if it had been, TLS was > already king. This would all have to have happened at least half a > decade earlier, if not a whole decade earlier, to have had a > chance. > > What was particularly appealing at one point was the possibility of > having ESP offload in NIC HW. The lower in the stack the crypto > happens, the easier it is to offload it. > >
- The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon need … Craig Partridge
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Joe Touch
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Michael Thomas
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Craig Partridge
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Richard Barnes
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Craig Partridge
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Nico Williams
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Nico Williams
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Richard Barnes
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Richard Barnes
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Christian Huitema
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Christian Huitema
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Joseph Touch
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Stewart Bryant
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Joseph Touch
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Nico Williams
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Michael Richardson
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Nico Williams
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Craig Partridge
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Masataka Ohta
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… John Levine
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Joseph Touch
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Christian Huitema
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Michael Thomas
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Joseph Touch
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Michael Thomas
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Salz, Rich
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Michael Thomas
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Salz, Rich
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Michael Thomas
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Michael Richardson
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Nick Hilliard
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Carsten Bormann
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Nick Hilliard
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Michael Thomas
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Joe Touch
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Nico Williams
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Nico Williams
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Nick Hilliard
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Michael Thomas
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Michael Thomas
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Nick Hilliard
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Michael Thomas
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Carsten Bormann
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Nico Williams
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Michael Thomas
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Nico Williams
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… John C Klensin
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Nico Williams
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Richard Barnes
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Russ Housley
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Nico Williams
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Warren Kumari
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… John C Klensin
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Christian Huitema
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… John C Klensin
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Craig Partridge
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Nico Williams
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Eric Rescorla
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Craig Partridge
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Michael Thomas
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Michael Thomas
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Nico Williams
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Michael Thomas
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… John Levine
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Michael Thomas
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Warren Kumari
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… John R Levine
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… tom petch
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Salz, Rich
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Carsten Bormann
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Salz, Rich
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Craig Partridge
- Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon n… Michael Thomas