Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your reviewand comments on a proposed Work-Around to the Pre-5378 Problem
Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Fri, 09 January 2009 11:41 UTC
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Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:42:20 +0900
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
From: Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Subject: Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your reviewand comments on a proposed Work-Around to the Pre-5378 Problem
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References: <70873A2B7F744826B0507D4B84903E60@noisy> <FB8A848E-E415-4CDE-9E3F-5C74A5614F18@cisco.com> <F857DDBB-CDEE-48A8-B59C-56AEDA65CE79@cs.tcd.ie> <4966CEF3.8080506@gmail.com>
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Cc: Trustees <trustees@ietf.org>, Working Group Chairs <wgchairs@ietf.org>, RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>, IETF Discussion <ietf@ietf.org>, Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
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At 13:13 09/01/09, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >On 2009-01-09 13:59, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> +1 to fred's proposal, let the exceptions be just that and don't bother >> most I-D authors, >> Stephen. >> >> On 8 Jan 2009, at 22:49, Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com> wrote: >> >>> You asked me to make this comment publicly, so here it is. >>> From my perspective, the best approach involves keeping the general >>> case simple. The documents that have been transferred outside the IETF >>> in the past five years is a single digit number, a tenth of a percent >>> of all RFCs if not a smaller fraction. > >If that was the main problem, I would agree. But it isn't; it's the ability >to allow appropriate use of extracts, including code extracts, in 3rd >party documents. First, my gut feeling would be that use of ABNF and similar stuff in actual implementations might simply be considered fair use, or it may just be possible to consider implementations as part of the IETF standards process (which they very much are). The situation may be somewhat different for longer/longish pieces of code, a typical example of which might be Appendix A of http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2192.txt. But the code is essentially there to serve as an example, as an additional guarantee that there is a common, shared understanding of the specification, not as a drop-in implementation. Also, such code in many instances is already covered under a more appropriate licence anyway. >That potentially concerns every RFC, Given the above (some of which might be a bit out on a limb, or not), I'm still not convinced the potential issue is that big. >and automatically >concerns every RFC that is a new version of an older one. > >It isn't hard to fix in my opinion (well, I just posted a draft with >the proposed fix) and I don't see that it *requires* any tool fixes. >Optionally, the tools could provide a macro that expands to the >disclaimer text, but cut-and-paste would work equally well. I have read your draft. I have one suggestion for modification. The text says: "the person(s) controlling the copyright in such material have not granted the IETF Trust the right to allow modifications of such material outside the IETF Standards Process." I think it might be more appropriate to change "the person(s)" to "some person(s)". Overall, I think currently the aspect most overlooked in the general discussion, but most relevant for somebody who would actually like to move on with publications (I'm both a WG chair with some drafts that have completed WG Last Call, but which are now in "RFC 5378 limbo", and an author of some individual IDs that I'd like to update and move forward) is: WHO exactly are we supposed to get permissions from. The situation of a deceased author is a tought one, but it's an obvious one. But I haven't seen any clear answer to whether permission from all the authors/editors (the people listed in the front of the document) is sufficient, whether we have to ask everybody above a certain percentage of email contributions in the WG, everybody who's mentioned in the Acks section, or what. It's a significant nuissance for everybody to go around and beg people (maybe including for their former employer) to confirm something they probably couldn't care less, even if they otherwise think the IETF does great stuff and everything. So it would really be good to know who exactly has to be bothered, and who not. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your revie… Ed Juskevicius
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… TSG
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Stephen Farrell
- RE: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… Ed Juskevicius
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… John C Klensin
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Martin Duerst
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… Thomas Narten
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Thomas Narten
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… John C Klensin
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Fred Baker
- RE: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Dave CROCKER
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… John Leslie
- RE: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Lawrence Rosen
- RE: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Jeffrey Hutzelman
- RE: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Lawrence Rosen
- RE: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Ted Hardie
- RE: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… John C Klensin
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Lawrence Rosen
- RE: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… ned+ietf
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Dave CROCKER
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… John C Klensin
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… John C Klensin
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Theodore Tso
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Bill Manning
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Simon Josefsson
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Theodore Tso
- RE: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Lawrence Rosen
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… John C Klensin
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… John C Klensin
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… John C Klensin
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Dave CROCKER
- A long-term meta-fix (was: Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNC… John C Klensin
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… ned+ietf
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Dave CROCKER
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Bill Manning
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Randy Presuhn
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Bill Manning
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Simon Josefsson
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… John C Klensin
- RE: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Lawrence Rosen
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Theodore Tso
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… TSG
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Simon Josefsson
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Simon Josefsson
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… Doug Ewell
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Fred Baker
- 5378 - one purpose Black_David
- RE: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… David Harrington
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… Russ Housley
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… John C Klensin
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… Russ Housley
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Russ Housley
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… John C Klensin
- RE: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Ed Juskevicius
- RE: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Ed Juskevicius
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… Stephan Wenger
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… Randy Presuhn
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Martin Duerst
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Russ Housley
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… TSG
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… Russ Housley
- RE: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Contreras, Jorge
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… Tom.Petch
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… Russ Housley
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… Bill Fenner
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… Russ Housley
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… Tom.Petch
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… Tom.Petch
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… Russ Housley
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… Dean Willis
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… John C Klensin
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Doug Ewell
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Russ Housley
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… Russ Housley
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Spencer Dawkins
- Re: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees in… Theodore Tso
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… Bob Braden
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… Roy T. Fielding
- Editors vs Authors vs Contributors, was: ANNOUNCE… Julian Reschke
- Re: Editors vs Authors vs Contributors, was: ANNO… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Editors vs Authors vs Contributors, was: ANNO… Theodore Tso
- Re: Editors vs Authors vs Contributors, was: ANNO… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Editors vs Authors vs Contributors, was: ANNO… Simon Josefsson
- Re: Editors vs Authors vs Contributors, was: ANNO… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Editors vs Authors vs Contributors, was: ANNO… Simon Josefsson
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… Dean Willis
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your r… John C Klensin
- Re: Editors vs Authors vs Contributors, was: ANNO… Julian Reschke