Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation)
Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Thu, 24 December 2015 15:24 UTC
Return-Path: <moore@network-heretics.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA1981ACD04 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 07:24:57 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: 0.1
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vJaoypKCw2Xh for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 07:24:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4964C1ACD01 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 07:24:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CED720686 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 10:24:55 -0500 (EST)
Received: from frontend1 ([10.202.2.160]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 24 Dec 2015 10:24:55 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=vSpK7yJWfVl2GL8 3DXb7wQY+SXs=; b=XeYknufnRwcSJsCHgTGnpFmUJIrJSwpMkc9R8aW86xJmkF8 MCChXYKZfjfRLqMYQPYDluQ4r7Nhbul/QWSDFn95Dxs2MjlR1CYqrFngnhIOnkhJ TvFKmYIMqiVtfI7AbN3/yWxdOtpw3Kyz5S4BmD6ljNl9QzK/9xSUfXihlvr8=
X-Sasl-enc: duMFmyA9qvd8DmujULfK0W6HonVsu1RUVedg5X5q9rmq 1450970695
Received: from [192.168.1.66] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id DE039C016D5; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 10:24:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation)
To: ietf@ietf.org
References: <CAC8QAcf=yAAGVN35tUCpX38y6_qGstGhK4iYuyhK94LVWrz-+A@mail.gmail.com> <7A7519D5-FD9B-4F4D-A7E5-AC047F684623@netapp.com> <EMEW3|02dedadbe5e65aac9732e9359a7c2dberBHGjK03tjc|ecs.soton.ac.uk|E7D065D8-CADC-4A65-8AC7-6ECE9CF63D4F@ecs.soton.ac.uk> <CAHw9_iKtck6ZSp6ofNFKLRj7-o3_UR42McTNQqsqCXfcduxAeA@mail.gmail.c om> <5674460C.1000107@krsek.cz> <4B81FA54-F79C-42CB-8024-1C653B0C9406@cisco.com> <20151218233645.GG3294@mx2.yitter.info> <56749EA4.6040801@gmail.com> <20151219000743.GH3294@mx2.yitter.info> <5676EBE9.8050304@dcrocker.net> <970B54F5-2422-4588-A95A-63E5144A8D35@gmail.com> <56789BBB.7020709@dcrocker.net> <4AE6DC68FC9B8CA113CBCDFA@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <5678D728.2080404@dcrocker.net> <5226A23C6E26B0350DE715AE@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <D6278A46-19AB-48D8-B55A-48FF51B7E0EC@piuha.net> <2508B3C2-8F5F-4417-8052-E73B6F34BED1@standardstrack.com> <567ACCEE.9030503@dcrocker.net> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B630797A0C2DE@mbx-03.WIN.NOMINUM.COM> <567B56A9.4030302@dcrocker.net>
From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
Message-ID: <567C0E37.1060305@network-heretics.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 10:24:39 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <567B56A9.4030302@dcrocker.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/lTebWJEaRaFgxbmbTQfEMA-cVMg>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 15:24:57 -0000
On 12/23/2015 09:21 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: > > Anecdotal. Mine. Over enough years to represent a pattern. (I'm not > alone in this, but I'm reporting my own experience) In 25 years, not one > single RFC I've worked on had a serious problem caught by an AD, though > many were eventually discovered to have serious problems When I was an AD, I caught several serious problems with drafts after WG or IETF Last Call. The problem I saw wasn't the inability to catch things so much as the inability to get them fixed. By the time a draft got past WG Last Call, it was generally so exhausted that it could not agree on how to make any significant change to a document, even in response to a legitimate and serious concern. In many cases, if there was a simple fix, it was quickly and happily implemented. But in far too many cases where there was a serious problem, the most that an IESG member could hope for was to get some weasel words inserted in the text or prepend an IESG note - neither of which really addressed the problem. It was entirely too much work to do all of that review. After being on IESG for four years, it was about ten years before I could stomach a detailed review of any lengthy technical document. While on IESG I tried getting others to do reviews for me, but I found that I still had to read the documents under review to make sense of the reviews I was getting. If I had to do that again today, I'd probably try to give the reviewers more guidance. But mostly I think that WGs need to have their work subject to formal external review much earlier in the process than Last Call, particularly when the WG's work has the potential to impact other WGs or other areas. Keith
- Hotel situation Melinda Shore
- RE: Hotel situation Ted Lemon
- Re: Hotel situation Melinda Shore
- Re: Hotel situation Tim Wicinski
- RE: Hotel situation Ted Lemon
- Re: Hotel situation Jared Mauch
- Re: Hotel situation Tim Chown
- Re: Hotel situation John Levine
- Re: Hotel situation Tim Chown
- Re: Hotel situation Melinda Shore
- Re: Hotel situation Eggert, Lars
- Re: Hotel situation Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Hotel situation Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)
- Re: Hotel situation Toerless Eckert
- Re: Hotel situation Ray Pelletier
- Re: Hotel situation Brian Rosen
- Re: Hotel situation Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)
- Re: Hotel situation Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Hotel situation Brian Rosen
- Re: Hotel situation Warren Kumari
- Re: Hotel situation Eggert, Lars
- Re: Hotel situation Tim Chown
- Re: Hotel situation Stewart Bryant
- Re: Hotel situation Warren Kumari
- Re: Hotel situation Melinda Shore
- Re: Hotel situation Warren Kumari
- Re: Hotel situation Michal Krsek
- Re: Hotel situation Dave Crocker
- Venue Selection Objectives and Criteria was Re: H… Ray Pelletier
- Re: Venue Selection Objectives and Criteria was R… George, Wes
- Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) Carsten Bormann
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) Michal Krsek
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) Andrew G. Malis
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) Wassim Haddad
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) Andrew Sullivan
- Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Dave Crocker
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Ralph Droms
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Dave Crocker
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) John C Klensin
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Dave Crocker
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) John C Klensin
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Jari Arkko
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Eric Burger
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Dave Crocker
- RE: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Ted Lemon
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Eric Burger
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Dave Crocker
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Dave Crocker
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Keith Moore
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Keith Moore
- RE: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Ted Lemon
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Ted Lemon
- Independent Stream (was Re: Cross-area review (wa… Dave Crocker
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Jari Arkko
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Jari Arkko
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) tom p.
- Re: Cross-area review (was Meeting rotation) Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) Richard Shockey
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) tom p.
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) Jari Arkko
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) John Levine
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) Stephen Farrell
- Re: Meeting rotation (was Hotel situation) John C Klensin
- Re: Hotel situation Toerless Eckert
- Re: Hotel situation Warren Kumari
- RE: Hotel situation Pat (Patricia) Thaler
- InterContinental BA experience so far (was: Re: H… Marco Davids
- Re: InterContinental BA experience so far (was: R… John Levine
- Re: InterContinental BA experience so far (was: R… Melinda Shore
- Re: InterContinental BA experience so far (was: R… Fernando Gont
- Re: InterContinental BA experience so far (was: R… John Levine
- Payouts for missed blocks (was Re: Hotel situatio… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Payouts for missed blocks (was Re: Hotel situ… John C Klensin
- Re: Payouts for missed blocks (was Re: Hotel situ… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: Hotel situation Christian Hopps
- Re: Hotel situation John Levine
- Re: Hotel situation Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Hotel situation Melinda Shore
- Re: Hotel situation Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Hotel situation Dave Crocker
- Re: Hotel situation Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Hotel situation Paul Wouters
- RE: Hotel situation Randall Gellens
- Re: Hotel situation Nadeau Thomas
- Re: Hotel situation John Levine
- Re: Hotel situation Paul Wouters
- Re: Hotel situation John R Levine
- Re: Hotel situation Melinda Shore
- Re: Hotel situation Livingood, Jason
- Re: Hotel situation John Levine
- Re: Hotel situation Livingood, Jason
- Re: Hotel situation Fernando Gont
- Re: Hotel situation Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Hotel situation Leif Johansson
- Re: Hotel situation John Levine
- Re: Hotel situation Sarah Banks
- Re: Hotel situation Donald Eastlake
- Re: Hotel situation Sarah Banks
- Re: Hotel situation Fernando Gont
- Re: Hotel situation Jari Arkko
- Re: Hotel situation Toerless Eckert
- Re: Hotel situation Jari Arkko
- Re: Hotel situation Jared Mauch
- Re: Hotel situation Lou Berger
- RE: Hotel situation Eric Gray
- Re: Hotel situation Mary Barnes
- Re: Hotel situation Jari Arkko
- Re: Hotel situation tom p.
- Re: Hotel situation Bob Hinden
- Re: Hotel situation Randy Bush
- Re: Hotel situation Paul Wouters
- Re: Hotel situation Randy Bush
- Re: Hotel situation Ole Jacobsen
- Re: locations, was Hotel situation John Levine
- Re: locations, was Hotel situation lloyd.wood
- Re: Hotel situation lloyd.wood
- Re: Hotel situation Randall Gellens
- Re: not really the current Hotel situation John Levine
- Re: Hotel situation Richard Shockey
- Re: Hotel situation Randall Gellens
- Re: Hotel situation John C Klensin
- Re: Hotel situation Stewart Bryant
- Re: Hotel situation Jari Arkko
- Re: Hotel situation l.wood
- Re: Hotel situation John C Klensin
- Re: Hotel situation Tim Chown
- Re: Hotel situation John C Klensin
- Re: Hotel situation Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Hotel situation Jared Mauch
- Venue Data for Upcoming Meetings was Re: Hotel si… Ray Pelletier
- Re: Venue Data for Upcoming Meetings was Re: Hote… Ray Pelletier
- Re: Hotel situation Randall Gellens
- Re: Hotel situation Lloyd Wood
- Re: Hotel situation Randall Gellens
- Re: Hotel situation Toerless Eckert
- Re: Hotel situation John C Klensin
- Re: Hotel situation Ole Jacobsen
- Re: ever more hypothetical Hotel situation John Levine
- RE: ever more hypothetical Hotel situation Christer Holmberg
- Re: ever more hypothetical Hotel situation Theodore V Faber
- Re: Hotel situation Nadeau Thomas
- Re: Hotel situation Christian Hopps
- Re: Hotel situation Dave Crocker
- Re: Hotel situation John C Klensin
- Re: Hotel situation Randall Gellens
- "resource-rich urban environments" (was "Re: Hote… Randall Gellens
- Re: Hotel situation John Levine