Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Tue, 28 September 2004 11:37 UTC
Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA14498; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:37:38 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCGQS-0007MM-5x; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:45:44 -0400
Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CCGDy-00052g-Va; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:32:50 -0400
Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CCG8g-0004cq-8n for ietf@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:27:22 -0400
Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA14062 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:27:21 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from ns.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=bs.jck.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCGGU-0007Dr-Nc for ietf@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:35:27 -0400
Received: from [209.187.148.215] (helo=scan.jck.com) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CCG8U-000K0X-W8; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:27:11 -0400
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:27:10 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, Dave Crocker <dhc2@dcrocker.net>, ietf@ietf.org
Message-ID: <454DCF8DE6D4C10F82E806E7@scan.jck.com>
In-Reply-To: <C4A184C3B6756B0AD785E11A@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126>
References: <2004927153921.674789@bbprime> <C4A184C3B6756B0AD785E11A@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126>
X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Subject: Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: ietf-bounces@ietf.org
Errors-To: ietf-bounces@ietf.org
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
--On Tuesday, 28 September, 2004 09:07 +0200 Harald Tveit
Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:
>
>
> --On 27. september 2004 15:39 -0700 Dave Crocker
> <dhc2@dcrocker.net> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 19:30:50 +0200, Harald Tveit Alvestrand
>> wrote:
>>> The poll about restructuring options:
>>> <http://tools.ietf.org/poll/admin_scenario_alternatives/>
>>> is open until Wednesday.
>>
>>
>> The poll asks whether one has an opinion and, if one has an
>> opinion, whether if favors either of two choices.
>>
>> The poll provides no way for other, basic, important and
>> logical opinions, such as whether both choices are
>> inappropriate.
>>
>> That makes this a rather exclusionary survey.
>
> In that case, you are in the "No, I do not wish to state an
> opinion" camp for this question. Your particular reasons for
> not wanting to state an opinion are your own, and well known
> to the IETF list.
Harald, one of the things one learns rather quickly when
actually studying either polling technique or the use of
pseudo-polls to manipulate opinion, is that the "no answer"
category of questions is very important, both with regard to how
it they are stated and with regard to how they are interpreted.
To combine "I don't have an opinion", "I don't think the options
provided here even approximately represents my opinion", "I have
an opinion but am fearful about telling you", "this discussion
has been so confusing that I have no way to decide", I don't
choose to spend my time worrying about things like this", is
tricky business, however unintentionally. Doing so with a
single question identified as "No, I do not wish to state an
opinion" makes it worse in some ways. At a minimum, one should
be extremely careful in interpreting answers to that sort of
question. And one should be equally careful in interpreting any
of the other answers if this option gets non-trivial answers.
These issues are, of course, among the reasons why the IETF
traditionally doesn't vote... or even conduct "please, everyone
should/must participate" polls.
john
_______________________________________________
Ietf mailing list
Ietf@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Dave Crocker
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Thoughts on scenario O Adrian Farrel
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options John C Klensin
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Thoughts on scenario O Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Eliot Lear
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Margaret Wasserman
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Eliot Lear
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Paul Hoffman / VPNC
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Dave Crocker
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options ned.freed
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Bill Manning
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options avri
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Dave Crocker
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Leif Johansson
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Dave Crocker
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Leif Johansson
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Kai Henningsen
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Kai Henningsen
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Eliot Lear
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options John C Klensin
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Sandy Wills
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Eliot Lear
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options John C Klensin
- Accusations of secrecy (Re: Reminder: Poll about … Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Spencer Dawkins
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Eliot Lear
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Leslie Daigle
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options John C Klensin
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Yakov Rekhter
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Dave Crocker
- Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Eliot Lear
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eliot Lear
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Patents (Re: Shuffle those deck chairs!) Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Vernon Schryver
- Re: Patents (Re: Shuffle those deck chairs!) Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Dave Crocker
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Hadmut Danisch
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Ted Hardie
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Ted Hardie
- isoc's skills Dave Crocker
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Scott W Brim
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Scott W Brim
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options John C Klensin
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Randy Presuhn
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Dave Crocker
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Simon Josefsson
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! scott bradner
- Copying conditions (was: Re: Shuffle those deck c… Simon Josefsson
- Re: Copying conditions (was: Re: Shuffle those de… scott bradner
- Re: Copying conditions Simon Josefsson
- Re: Copying conditions Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Copying conditions Eliot Lear
- Re: Copying conditions Simon Josefsson
- Re: Copying conditions Francis Dupont
- Re: Copying conditions Simon Josefsson
- Re: Copying conditions Francis Dupont
- Re: Copying conditions Simon Josefsson
- Re: Copying conditions scott bradner
- Re: Copying conditions Simon Josefsson
- Re: Copying conditions scott bradner
- Re: Copying conditions Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Copying conditions JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: Copying conditions Francis Dupont
- Re: Copying conditions Valdis.Kletnieks
- Re: Copying conditions Francis Dupont
- Re: Copying conditions Francis Dupont
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Kai Henningsen
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Kai Henningsen
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Kai Henningsen
- Re: Copying conditions Kai Henningsen
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Kai Henningsen
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Florian Weimer
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Florian Weimer
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Copying conditions Sam Hartman
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Florian Weimer
- Re: Copying conditions scott bradner
- Re: Copying conditions Sam Hartman
- Re: Copying conditions scott bradner
- Re: Copying conditions Sam Hartman
- Re: Copying conditions Margaret Wasserman
- Re: Copying conditions Margaret Wasserman
- Re: Copying conditions Sam Hartman
- Re: Copying conditions scott bradner
- Re: Copying conditions Michael Richardson
- Re: Copying conditions Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Copying conditions Simon Josefsson
- Re: Copying conditions Anthony DeRobertis
- Re: Copying conditions Simon Josefsson
- Re: Copying conditions scott bradner
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Sam Hartman
- Re: Patents (Re: Shuffle those deck chairs!) Dean Anderson
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Dean Anderson
- Re: Copying conditions Florian Weimer
- RE: Copying conditions Christian de Larrinaga
- Re: Copying conditions Florian Weimer
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Dean Anderson
- Re: Patents (Re: Shuffle those deck chairs!) JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: isoc's skills Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Copying conditions scott bradner
- Re: Copying conditions Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Copying conditions Francis Dupont
- Re: isoc's skills Dave Crocker
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Florian Weimer
- RE: isoc's skills Tony Hain
- Re: isoc's skills Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Sam Hartman
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Nathaniel Borenstein
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Simon Josefsson
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! shogunx
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Margaret Wasserman
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- RE: Shuffle those deck chairs! Brian Rosen
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Paul Vixie
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Pekka Savola
- RE: Shuffle those deck chairs! RL 'Bob' Morgan
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! shogunx
- RE: Shuffle those deck chairs! Brian Rosen
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Pekka Savola
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Michael Richardson
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Dean Anderson
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Pekka Savola
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! shogunx
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Kai Henningsen
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! shogunx
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! shogunx
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eliot Lear
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Kai Henningsen
- Re: Copying conditions Simon Josefsson
- Re: Copying conditions Sam Hartman
- Re: Copying conditions Simon Josefsson
- Re: Copying conditions Anthony DeRobertis
- RE: Copying conditions Lawrence Rosen
- Re: Copying conditions Bill Sommerfeld
- Re: Copying conditions Sam Hartman
- RE: Copying conditions Lawrence Rosen