Re: WGs/AD [IETF areas re-organisation steps]
Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Fri, 26 December 2014 22:22 UTC
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Message-ID: <549DDF98.1060802@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 11:22:16 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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To: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: WGs/AD [IETF areas re-organisation steps]
References: <ED473823-2B1E-4431-8B42-393D20BA72DF@piuha.net> <7973.1419613616@sandelman.ca> <CAG4d1rcXa10moh7-V2oteV+3o8y0s+QwCTXaCWt5aBeRdPKv=A@mail.gmail.com> <549DB9A6.4050506@gmail.com> <CAG4d1rc3vB693OAW8KrzVaZ3hkdL1OuD=4dByVVW7yuD0+Otvg@mail.gmail.com>
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Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, IETF-Discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>
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Hi Alia, On 27/12/2014 08:59, Alia Atlas wrote: > Hi Brian, > > On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 2:40 PM, Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 27/12/2014 06:46, Alia Atlas wrote: ... >>>> I'm a little bit surprised that the RTG area load has gone up >>>> like this, and so quickly. Is it the various SDN things that >>>> are pushing this, or is it >>>> that the RTG area currently has the most enthusiasm for YANG >>>> work? >>>> >>> >>> It's a mixture of things combined with RTG already being at the >>> very top edge of workload. In RTG we have/will have about 21 >>> active WGs; if we add a third routing AD, then RTG will absorb 3 >>> WGs from INT. Granted that one is not active and may be merged >>> in, we are still looking at about 23 WGs for RTG with a more >>> average load being about 8 WGs/AD. >> >> So let's be frank about this. Today (excluding the General Area AD >> with his crippling load of 1 WG) we have 129 WGs for 14 Ads, >> which is 9.2 WGs/AD. That is clearly too many, so should there be >> a target ratio and a plan for reaching it? >> > > No, as you well know, it depends on the size and business of the > WGs, the management load, etc., as well as the number. Clearly we > don't want to not create new WGs when appropriate nor to discourage > existing useful work. Of course, an average is only an average, but the point is: we've had about 125 WGs for at least ten years now, and we've had over-burdened ADs for all that time. That seems to be a fundamental problem, regardless of the sort of adjustments the IESG is currently proposing. There are two words in your second sentence above implying a value judgment: "appropriate" and "useful". Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, the only way to truly manage the IESG workload is by raising the bar for "appropriate" and "useful". (The same applies to the bar for a WG to adopt a particular work item.) > This is a question of balancing load and there is a surge of > YANG-related work which does require more focused management. Is it > better to have 2 ADs at 100%-120% and others with less load when the > size of the IESG would be otherwise reduced. Are you suggesting > that suggesting another routing AD to take load from RTG and INT is a > bad idea compared to dropping the IESG to 14 & eventually 13? No, I was specifically trying to avoid being specific. I think we have a general long-term problem. It's entirely appropriate for the IESG to propose workload re-balancing to deal with the current workload. I may have some quibbles, but it's the IESG's decision. > Are you simply concerned with the dynamics of how many ADs have the > various perspectives on the IESG? > > Obviously, we are looking for feedback and opinions and ideas. Do > you have other well thought out suggestions? In terms of the long-term problem, unless I am mistaken, neither the IESG nor the community has ever said much about how to make the judgment calls that new work is useful and appropriate for the IETF. We've got a very good document to help BOF proponents (RFC 5434) but I don't think we've ever tackled the next bit: deciding whether this work should be chartered? One result of that is that proponents who have what they think is a successful BOF are sometimes very puzzled and frustrated by their failure to form a WG. Another result is that it's a bit harder for the IESG to say "no" than it would be if the decision criteria were a bit more transparent. A third aspect is that every new IESG member has to discover for herself how this vital bit of the process works on the inside. I think my suggestion is that to have any serious hope of controlling the workload *in the long term*, we need to have something (it could be an IESG statement, it could be an RFC) the stakes out a position on what it means for a WG or work item to be judged appropriate and useful. Regards Brian
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Ted Lemon
- IETF areas re-organisation steps Jari Arkko
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Huub van Helvoort
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Robert Sparks
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Dave Crocker
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Paul Hoffman
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Steve Crocker
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Ted Lemon
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Michael Richardson
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Michael Richardson
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Scott Brim
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Ole Jacobsen
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Dave Crocker
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Alia Atlas
- WGs/AD [IETF areas re-organisation steps] Brian E Carpenter
- Re: WGs/AD [IETF areas re-organisation steps] Stephen Farrell
- Re: WGs/AD [IETF areas re-organisation steps] Alia Atlas
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: WGs/AD [IETF areas re-organisation steps] Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Ted Hardie
- Re: WGs/AD [IETF areas re-organisation steps] Jari Arkko
- Re: WGs/AD [IETF areas re-organisation steps] Alia Atlas
- Re: WGs/AD [IETF areas re-organisation steps] Melinda Shore
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Eggert, Lars
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Nico Williams
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Robert Sparks
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Alissa Cooper
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Ted Hardie
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Robert Sparks
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Eggert, Lars
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Jari Arkko
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Dave Crocker
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Brian Trammell
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Mary Barnes
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Dave Crocker
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Ben Campbell
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Benoit Claise
- RE: IETF areas re-organisation steps Larry Masinter
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Yoav Nir
- RE: IETF areas re-organisation steps Larry Masinter
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps joel jaeggli
- RE: IETF areas re-organisation steps Larry Masinter
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Julian Reschke
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IETF areas re-organisation steps t.p.