Re: Terminology discussion threads
Mary B <mary.h.barnes@gmail.com> Tue, 18 August 2020 22:54 UTC
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From: Mary B <mary.h.barnes@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 17:54:24 -0500
Message-ID: <CABmDk8m06jxWDKFvTfUkprUUQt1pYta8VsPsZ3tSHsF8JZ7T4g@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Terminology discussion threads
To: Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org>
Cc: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>, "<ietf@ietf.org>" <ietf@ietf.org>
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On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 3:34 PM Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org> wrote: > > > On 19/08/2020, at 2:53 AM, S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com> wrote: > > Hi Warren, > At 07:30 AM 17-08-2020, Warren Kumari wrote: > > I'd like to ask y'all to reconsider leaving this list, because voices > matter, individually and in the aggregate. The IESG needs to know > every time it screws up (and, hopefully, if we get something right!). > I completely understand -- and agree -- that participating in the list > can be painful and difficult; but please, try to stick it out. We need > to be building the society that we want; one part of this is > participating in these uncomfortable discussions, and also letting the > "leadership" know when we mess up. I know it sometimes might not seem > like it, but we are listening, and really are trying to do the right > thing. > > This list might not be where the technical work gets done, but it is > one of the places where community is built. And a community matters > for technical discussions, especially when there is dissenting opinion > or a contentious topic. > > > First of all, thank you for posting the above message. > > Nowadays, this mailing list is an avenue for subscribers who cannot pay > the fee for the LLC's Pay-TV channel [1] to express their opinion. > > > I think you are well aware that this was a mistake that was swiftly > corrected > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/xMoaLSjq30gxPK4cbqfjAMyJzlM/ > > I think you are are also well aware that we offered unlimited fee waivers > for IETF 108. > > While both of those had significant missteps on the way, the end result > was a meeting that anyone could participate in and therefore your > description of the situation is far from accurate. > [MB] To pick one nit here, there were 12 people that responded to your survey as to why they didn't attend and you didn't identify the reason for all of them. So, I'll explain my reason which may be an anomaly or perhaps applies to others. While you offered unlimited fee waivers, the wording was clear that those should be used by folks for whom it's a significant barrier to participation. For some of us that are paying our own way, the fee was just a little more than we thought worth the benefit, since often the most significant value to independent folks is the networking. So, I took advantage of the YouTube channel and post meeting meetecho recordings. As I said during the discussion of the fee thread, I'd be willing to pay something and would love the option to donate depending upon what my accounting for the year looks like. I just did not feel that I qualified for a fee waiver in principle. But, I would have paid $99 (for other conferences I've been attending that have switched to virtual, that's been the max fee - often less). I thought about the one day pass but by the time the agenda was out I couldn't decide which one day I would attend and by then I was already in the Late registration deadline. [/MB] > > Jay > > It can also be useful for subscribers who do not have a "right to > redress" [2]. That right is more important than the right to vote as it > provides a protection against arbitrary decisions or procedural failures. > > It is not possible to build a society when the leaders are happily cut off > from the rest of the society, e.g. most Area Directors do not participate > in ietf@ discussions, or when Area Directors decide what they believe is > right without being accountable for their decisions. > > It is the first time I see a subscriber receiving a warning from the > Sergeant-at-Arms for sending an email [3] to the IETF Chair. That is the > kind of event you would see in so-called authoritarian regimes. On a > tangent, I previously suggested to an IAB member that the Sergeant-at-Arms > is not a model to follow [4]. > > It is also the first time that I see a subscriber reprimanded for sending > substantive messages to this mailing list. This is part of an announcement > whish is issued on a Last Call: Please send substantive comments ... The > IESG is requesting substantive comments in one context and forbidding it in > another context. Does that make sense to you? > > Regards, > S. Moonesamy > > 1. https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/OVpGoGUKoTBGS-9DUQ7tuCBV174/ > 2. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moonesamy-recall-rev-03 > 3. https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/5q24VzOoxoC_3KbIKTACQ6FvLGY/ > 4. > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/mZioFDZ34zQSh7fU23sK9lmqTg8/ > > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > jay@ietf.org > >
- Terminology discussion threads IETF Chair
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Lars Eggert
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Richard Barnes
- Re: Terminology discussion threads David Schinazi
- RE: Terminology discussion threads STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Eric Rescorla
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Melinda Shore
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Ted Hardie
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Suresh Krishnan
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Lloyd Wood
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Sergeant-at-Arms
- Re: Terminology discussion threads (CORRECTION) Sergeant-at-Arms
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Dan Harkins
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Masataka Ohta
- Re: Terminology discussion threads IETF Sergeant at Arms
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Martin Duke
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Dan Harkins
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Wendy Seltzer
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Nadim Kobeissi
- Re: Terminology discussion threads IETF Sergeant at Arms
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Nadim Kobeissi
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Ofer Inbar
- RE: Terminology discussion threads STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Michael StJohns
- Re: Terminology discussion threads IETF Sergeant-at-Arms
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Randy Bush
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Richard Barnes
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Melinda Shore
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Eric Heflin
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Charlie Perkins
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Kyle Rose
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Toerless Eckert
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Nico Williams
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Bob Hinden
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Carlos M. Martinez
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Nick Hilliard
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Leif Johansson
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Toerless Eckert
- Re: Terminology discussion threads David Schinazi
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Nico Williams
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Keith Moore
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Michael StJohns
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Pete Resnick
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Richard Barnes
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Toerless Eckert
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Leif Johansson
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Toerless Eckert
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Michael StJohns
- Re: Terminology discussion threads S Moonesamy
- SaA Team actions (was: Re: Terminology discussion… John C Klensin
- Re: Terminology discussion threads IETF Chair
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Nico Williams
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Alissa Cooper
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Richard Barnes
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Paul Wouters
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Martin Thomson
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Melinda Shore
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Carsten Bormann
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Nadim Kobeissi
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Rob Sayre
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Bron Gondwana
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Paul Hoffman
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Paul Hoffman
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Nico Williams
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Eric Rescorla
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Christian Huitema
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Nadim Kobeissi
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Dan Harkins
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Nico Williams
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Nico Williams
- Self-moderation Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Self-moderation Mary B
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Mary B
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Keith Moore
- Re: Terminology discussion threads (off-topic) S Moonesamy
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Jen Linkova
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Jared Mauch
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Dan Harkins
- Re: Terminology discussion threads tom petch
- Re: Terminology discussion threads (off-topic) Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Terminology discussion threads (off-topic) S Moonesamy
- RE: Terminology discussion threads Larry Masinter
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Carsten Bormann
- Weekly message summaries John Levine
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Fernando Gont
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Warren Kumari
- On plenary functions Eliot Lear
- Re: On plenary functions Carsten Bormann
- Re: Self-moderation Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Self-moderation Warren Kumari
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Miles Fidelman
- Re: Self-moderation John C Klensin
- Re: On plenary functions Jay Daley
- Re: On plenary functions Keith Moore
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Keith Moore
- Re: On plenary functions Carsten Bormann
- Re: Self-moderation Stewart Bryant
- Re: Self-moderation Carsten Bormann
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Carlos M. Martinez
- Re: Self-moderation John Levine
- Re: On plenary functions Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Self-moderation Warren Kumari
- Re: Self-moderation John C Klensin
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Patrik Fältström
- Re: On plenary functions Eliot Lear
- Re: Terminology discussion threads tom petch
- Re: Terminology discussion threads S Moonesamy
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Jay Daley
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Mary B
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Toerless Eckert
- Re: Terminology discussion threads S Moonesamy
- Re: Weekly message summaries Töma Gavrichenkov