Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work
Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> Mon, 02 March 2015 21:24 UTC
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Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 22:23:56 +0100
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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To: "t.p." <daedulus@btconnect.com>, "Thomas D. Nadeau" <tnadeau@lucidvision.com>, Berger Lou <lberger@labn.net>
Subject: Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work
References: <CAL0qLwZk=k-CWLte_ChK9f1kzLwMOTRyi7AwFa8fLjBsextBcA@mail.gmail.com> <CAMm+LwgzXg+QM29ygS0Bv+HOo2Gd-hPByXYz2aVu-V4b=Jak+Q@mail.gmail.com> <54EEFCFB.7080107@cisco.com> <047F946E-3041-4510-8F78-D8D743C4FEED@nominum.com> <939B49536ECD5BFA17B5E5C4@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <48DFF1A2-9BD0-4E08-B44A-704D5DCC278E@nominum.com> <54EF3644.7090808@joelhalpern.com> <02ED4331-9441-484C-96A6-70352C42ABBC@nominum.com> <54EF426A.9070706@joelhalpern.com> <31CF2C53-8168-4B2F-9E14-76FB44854813@nominum.com> <54EF7229.1030301@queuefull.net> <CAK3OfOh6BMP40y0H5Yny+n-8B8ayzgq4BeT2MmfF2XuxBBLk5A@mail.gmail.com> <54EF772C.5030309@queuefull.net> <519F10F3-0B24-4085-9294-8FFA10632CB3@lucidvision.com> <54EF8D21.30701@gmai l.com> <6BE1D8A6-C954-49C9-B0B8-D2D52DE212DC@lucidvision.com> <54EF9080.9050500@joelhalpern.com> <5CC61F43-5BF1-4DA1-8322-BF033D543DAE@lucidvision.co m> <54EF9A36.4020905@labn.net> <528C98F9-5D16-4B5F-9B11-886C91B5FE59@lucidvision.com> <00b101d0529f$0c6ea580$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net>
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On 27/02/2015 16:03, t.p. wrote: > Inline <tp> > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thomas D. Nadeau" <tnadeau@lucidvision.com> > To: "Berger Lou" <lberger@labn.net> > Cc: <ietf@ietf.org> > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 10:23 PM >> On Feb 26, 2015:5:12 PM, at 5:12 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> > wrote: >> Tom, >> On 2/26/2015 4:48 PM, Thomas D. Nadeau wrote: >>>> On Feb 26, 2015:4:30 PM, at 4:30 PM, Joel M. Halpern > <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote: >>>> Thomas, if participants who can not make the conference calls are > obliged to listen to the full recordings to get the key points of what > has happened, why, what are the questions, and similar issues that need > to be visible to the WG, then we are not running an inclusive process > that allows for participation by the range of individuals we need. >>> That is the problem. We're really only geared to have full-on, in > person meetings all the time. That does not lend itself to being > flexible/agile. That is not to say that I want to exclude anyone, but > to be fair, if a subset of people want to move a pile of work forward, > we shouldn't ENCOURAGE that behavior not stifle. >> It sounds to that you are describing design team meetings (or, in some >> cases, an authors meetings). I'm not sure what makes folks think that >> the only way folks can collaborate is via the mail list or full on >> interim meetings. > Yes. >>>> There is a reason that the IETF distinguishes between design teams > meetings, where the design team has to explain their work carefully to > the WG, and working group meetings. There has always been a problem of > not getting as much context as we would like from the WG minutes. But > since we explicitly take all resolutions to the list, this is > ameliorated by folks being able to ask for explanations, by those issues > being taken to the list promptly, and by the fact that we only met 3 > times a year. If you have bi-weekly calls and the WG can not tell what > is going on with those calls, then what you have is a design team. And > then the folks involved need to own up to it as a design team, > understand that they need to explain to the list what they have > analyzed, their reasoning, and their conclusions. >>> Design teams should be able to work asynchronously, but with fixed > schedules and not have to have everything explicitly documented at every > step. >> 100% agree. >> >> I've been involved in many of such meetings (conf calls, webex, etc.) >> and the key is that DT/authors' meetings need to be explained and >> discussed on the list *at a time of their choosing*, which in my >> experience is usually when a draft is published/updated. >> >>> If someone else is curious, they can get involved but not in order to > slow things down or throw a monkey wrench into the works. If people want > to keep leaning back on 10 year old process RFCs and arguing "well thats > just the way we've always done things around here" then this > organization is going to continue to slow its progress even more - and > its descent into irrelevancy. There are a lot of people here (myself > included) that want to evolve things because they think the IETF still > has a lot to offer the industry. But if the organization won't evolve, > people will take the path of least resistance and go elsewhere as they > have been doing if you haven't noticed. >> This statement just confuses me as you note below we've always had > ways >> for folks to make progress fast -- when there's interest in doing so. >> It just seems to me that many are enamored with interims and think > it's >> the sole/best way of demonstrating progress between full meetings. >> Perhaps you're just saying that they're mistaken... > Its not being enamored as much as it being one of the only > obvious/acceptable vehicles to progress WG-level > work forward - at least if the management is involved. In NETMOD for > example, we've broken the interims into two "themes": Yang 1.1 work and > modeling. The former is like its own design team, and the latter is > like many design teams coming to one place every other week. The former > not only meets every other week, but discusses issues on the list. But > to the latter - that is more like a touch point for those subteams. > Those subteams go off on their own for weeks at a time and iterate as > needed. And they work without all of the overhead of a formal meeting. > They may or may not discuss progress on the list until issues come up. > > <tp> > Tom > > Take a small group of engineeers, expert in technology, get them to hold > regular meetings focussed on a narrow range of topics and they can make > faster progress, as you cite for 'netmod'. > > What is also likely to happen, and I see it with netmod, is that they > will develop their own way of working, their own terminology, their own > technology even, which de facto raises the bar for anyone else who wants > to participate or to understand what happened. They don't mean to > exclude other people, they just do. (small groups, Psychology 101) > > I see 'netmod' as a poster child for this with its issue list, state > machine for issues and so on. Even though I was tracking the list when > the 'Ynn' issue list was created, I don't know where its state machine > came from. In recent minutes, I don't know what > " AB: I am not sure YANG 1.0 specifies C1 explicitly somewhere. > JS: Does A3 not follow from A2? > KW: A3 is more a corollary of A2. > AB: The high-level problem is how to create and maintain the > information needed to achieve A4. " > > is about; a brief search of mailing list and I-Ds gave me no explanation > for A2 to C1. And what about an email to the NETMOD mailing list, asking this question? How is this any different than meeting minutes on a physical meeting, on which you would have a question? Regards, Benoit > > And if a different group of engineers works on different topics, then > they will likely, in the absence of any guidance, use different > technology, different terminology and end up with a way of working that > is as alien to the first group. > > As I said, changing the way we work. > > Tom Petch > </tp> > > > > > > --Tom > > >> Lou >> >>> If you want a real example of how this can actually work, watch Anees > explain how Open Config has done this with just weekly phone calls and a > bunch of people typing on keyboards. They've done this in less than a > year, and have rough consensus and (production) running code. This is > how the IETF used to operate: people got together, hacked code and got > things working. The goal was not having meetings, but producing code > with rough consensus. >>> > https://code.facebook.com/posts/1421954598097990/networking-scale-recap >>> --Tom >>> >>> >>> >>>> Yours, >>>> Joel >>>> >>>> On 2/26/15 4:21 PM, Thomas D. Nadeau wrote: >>>>>> On Feb 26, 2015:4:16 PM, at 4:16 PM, Brian E Carpenter > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> On 27/02/2015 09:08, Thomas D. Nadeau wrote: >>>>>>>> On Feb 26, 2015:2:42 PM, at 2:42 PM, Benson Schliesser > <bensons@queuefull.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> Nico Williams wrote: >>>>>>>>> Yes, but a record that a concall or other interim meeting took > place, >>>>>>>>> and who attended, even if there are incomplete or missing > minutes, is >>>>>>>>> important for IPR reasons. Ensuring that such meetings are > NOTE WELL >>>>>>>>> meetings is (should be) a priority, and that includes ensuring > that a >>>>>>>>> record of that much exists. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ideally the concalls and other interims would be recorded. >>>>>>>> I agree completely. My point was that meeting records (including > minutes) will inevitably be incomplete, or possibly inaccurate, and that > relying on the mailing list as an authoritative record is more > effective. >>>>>>>> Of course it is disappointing that we can't meaningfully > translate voice discussions into text, in the minutes or in mailing list > threads. If there were some magic tool e.g. that took better minutes > then I'd be happy to use it. But otherwise, I think we just have to > trust chairs to manage WG collaboration in whatever way is most > effective for their WG's collaborators. >>>>>>> The first step is to agree that an A/V recording is record > enough. >>>>>> It absolutely is not enough. Please see my previous message, >>>>>> and the relevant rules in RFC 2418. >>>>>> >>>>>> Brian >>>>> You are missing my point. RFC or not, the IETF needs to evolve. >>>>> >>>>> --Tom >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps having meetbot/txt notes that at a min include > actions/decisions like we do in the issue tracker we've used for > NETMOD's Yang 1.1's issues. >>>>>>> --Tom >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This will inevitably be suboptimal for some part of the > population. (For instance, I've never been able to find an interim > meeting time that fits the schedules of all attendees.) But if they (we) > always revert to the mailing list for decision making then I suspect our > work can remain open and transparent. >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> -Benson >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> > . >
- A Eulogy For A Friend - Ping Pan Thomas D. Nadeau
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- RE: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Scott Kitterman
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Dave Cridland
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Dave Cridland
- RE: Remote participation fees Christer Holmberg
- Re: Remote participation fees John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Michael Richardson
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Dave Cridland
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Dave Cridland
- RE: Remote participation fees Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: Remote participation fees Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: Remote participation fees John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Melinda Shore
- Re: Remote participation fees Stewart Bryant
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- RE: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… James Gannon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Carlos Vera Quintana
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Carlos Vera Quintana
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Sam Hartman
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom Allison Mankin
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY John C Klensin
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Remote participation fees Eric Burger
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Yoav Nir
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: Remote participation fees Tim Chown
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing par… Eric Burger
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Ted Lemon
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Dave Crocker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benson Schliesser
- Re: Remote participation fees Nico Williams
- Re: Remote participation fees Nico Williams
- Re: Remote participation fees John C Klensin
- "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing the w… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Benson Schliesser
- Re: Remote participation fees Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Yoav Nir
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… t.p.
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work John C Klensin
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Alia Atlas
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel Halpern Direct
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Mary Barnes
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Dave Crocker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benson Schliesser
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Nico Williams
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Benson Schliesser
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Andy Bierman
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benson Schliesser
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work John C Klensin
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Roy T. Fielding
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Nico Williams
- RE: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Christer Holmberg
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Alia Atlas
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… t.p.
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Mary Barnes
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Nico Williams
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Stephen Farrell
- Re: sweets to the sweet, was 'Paywall, ' IETF sel… John Levine
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… l.wood
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… John C Klensin
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Randy Bush
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… John C Klensin
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Donald Eastlake
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… joel jaeggli
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Dave Cridland
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Dave Cridland
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Andy Bierman
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.