Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC2119 words]
Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu> Tue, 29 March 2016 11:30 UTC
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Subject: Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC2119 words]
To: Scott Bradner <sob@sobco.com>, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
References: <20160320223116.8946.76840.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADEAFFC7@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <CA+9kkMCsT43ZCSdq8gdKXu1k4pJgbf0ab5tE=dDiFfrTT2gtkA@mail.gmail.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADEB0D16@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <56F79D05.8070004@alvestrand.no> <326E6502-28E5-4D09-BB99-4A5D80625EB0@stewe.org> <56F88E18.2060506@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20160328104731.GO88304@verdi> <CALaySJ+hYMMsKE7Ws-NJbyqH55E-mQM-duTEcJGc0TWvTP88Ew@mail.gmail.com> <20160328132859.GP88304@verdi> <28975138-9EA1-4A9F-A6C0-BC1416B8EA44@sobco.com> <CALaySJJkNj2jfm0gJpuDzq8oFDjTNn-uQ5MHdmEOLwTiFZUyQQ@mail.gmail.com> <8975F15F-5C4C-4D02-98CD-BF4FDF104D35@sobco.com> <56F98CD1.10706@gmail.com> <CALaySJJ0WTU5m3b6Cad7ULyLHzpWeTpTFpu-y=hHyoYs5xqsXg@mail.gmail.com> <B0FC9E8C-9F20-43D0-904A-31BC19A9C476@sobco.com>
From: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
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Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 19:29:56 +0800
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Cc: "Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)" <rse@rfc-editor.org>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>
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2nd in motion /Loa On 2016-03-29 19:27, Scott Bradner wrote: > fwiw - seems to me that the basic idea that MUST and must are the same is wrong and will lead to > even more confusion > > imo - any clarification should (not SHOULD - i.e. the english language) say > 1/ some authors capitalize some words for emphasis and clarity > 2/ there is no requirement to use capitalized words > 2/ when capitalized words are used RFC 2119 says what the capitalized words mean > 3/ non capitalized words are interpreted using normal English > > Scott > >> On Mar 28, 2016, at 4:30 PM, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> wrote: >> >> Brian, I think your note goes to how important it is to write clearly >> and to get a lot of eyes on it before we publish it. Well-written >> documents, with or without 2119 key words, and with or without >> lower-case look-alikes, can still be clear. Fuzzily written documents >> will be fuzzy. >> >> In particular: >> >>> they mean? It can be very unclear. If a node receives a message containing >>> an element covered in the spec by "allowed" instead of "OPTIONAL", is the >>> receiver supposed to interoperate or to reject the message? >> >> Well, this is where 2119 advises that we *use* the key words when >> interoperability is at stake. It's fine to be fuzzy when it doesn't >> matter, though even then, I'd argue for more explanation: >> >> Every frobotz MUST contain a valid bleeg. The glorp field in the >> frobotz is an unsigned integer that is normally between 0 and 666, >> inclusive. Values greater than 666 are allowed, but recipients >> using older software might not be able to handle such values. >> ... >> When processing a frobotz that does not meet the requirements in >> section 3.1.4, it is permissible to reject the frobotz outright, or to >> attempt to process the parts of it that make sense; the choice is >> an implementation decision. However, any frobotz that does not >> contain a valid bleeg MUST be rejected. >> >> That sort of thing. >> >> Barry >> >> On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 3:58 PM, Brian E Carpenter >> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: >>> There are times when I think RFC2119 was a really bad idea, despite it having >>> become probably the most frequently cited RFC (inside and outside the IETF). >>> It seems to create as much confusion as it avoids. >>> >>> There are four words whose RFC2119 meaning is different from the dictionary >>> meaning: should, recommended, may and optional. Having special typography >>> for them is useful, because it signals the RFC2119 meanings. But if a spec >>> uses, for example, a mixture of SHOULD and should, who knows what the authors >>> intended? To that extent, the proposed clarification is helpful. >>> >>> The other words (must, shall, required, not) mean what they always mean. >>> The only argument for upper-casing them is aesthetic symmetry. If a spec >>> uses alternatives like mandatory, necessary or forbidden, they are just as >>> powerful. >>> >>> So >>>> these definitions are only meaningful if the words are capitalized >>> can be applied to should, recommended, may and optional if we want, >>> but strictly doesn't apply to must, shall, required, not, mandatory, >>> necessary, forbidden, need, or any other such words. >>> >>> Where we can get into real trouble is if a spec contains should, recommended, >>> may and optional *plus* other non-categorical (fuzzy) words like ought, >>> encourage, suggest, can, might, allowed, permit (and I did not pull those >>> words out of the air, but out of draft-hansen-nonkeywords-non2119). What do >>> they mean? It can be very unclear. If a node receives a message containing >>> an element covered in the spec by "allowed" instead of "OPTIONAL", is the >>> receiver supposed to interoperate or to reject the message? >>> >>> If we are issuing guidance, it should probably include a specific warning >>> to use any such fuzzy words with extreme care. >>> >>> Brian >>> On 29/03/2016 03:13, Scott O. Bradner wrote: >>>> one minor tweak >>>> >>>>> On Mar 28, 2016, at 10:09 AM, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The wishy washy descriptive rather than proscriptive language in the abstract was because I, >>>>>> the IESG and the community were not of one mind to say that the use of such capitalized >>>>>> terms should be mandatory - quite a few people felt that the english language was at >>>>>> least good enough to convey the writer’s intent without having to aggrandize specific words. >>>>>> Thus the abstract basically was saying: if you want to use capitalized words here is a standard >>>>>> way to say what they mean >>>>> >>>>> Ah. Then perhaps the clarification needs to go a little further and >>>>> make this clear: >>>>> - We're defining specific terms that specifications can use. >>>>> - These terms are always capitalized when these definitions are used. >>>> >>>> these definitions are only meaningful if the words are capitalized >>>> >>>>> - You don't have to use them. If you do, they're capitalized and >>>>> their meanings are as specified here. >>>>> - There are similar-looking English words that are not capitalized, >>>>> and they have their normal English meanings; this document has nothing >>>>> to do with them. >>>>> >>>>> ...and I'd like to add one more, because so many people think that >>>>> text isn't normative unless it has 2119 key words in all caps in it: >>>>> >>>>> - Normative text doesn't require the use of these key words. They're >>>>> used for clarity and consistency when you want that, but lots of >>>>> normative text doesn't need to use them, and doesn't use them. >>>>> >>>>> Barry >>>> >>>> >>> >
- Uppercase question for RFC2119 words John Leslie
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Barry Leiba
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words John C Klensin
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Barry Leiba
- Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC2119 w… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Eric Gray
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Barry Leiba
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words John Levine
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words David Farmer
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dick Franks
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words S Moonesamy
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Tony Finch
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Scott Bradner
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Loa Andersson
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Randy Bush
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… John C Klensin
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Scott Bradner
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Ben Campbell
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Dave Cridland
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… John C Klensin
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… John C Klensin
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Dave Cridland
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… John C Klensin
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Eliot Lear
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Dave Cridland
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dave Crocker
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Eliot Lear
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Lee Howard
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Ben Campbell
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Warren Kumari
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dave Cridland
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dave Crocker
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words John C Klensin
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Pat Thaler
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Barry Leiba
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dave Cridland
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Mark Andrews
- RE: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
- RE: [rtcweb] Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question … Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words tom p.
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Lee Howard
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Francis Dupont