Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term)

Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Fri, 09 April 2021 22:06 UTC

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Subject: Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term)
To: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
Cc: John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a9698e3a-bee7-aadc-028e-647b7033a016@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 10:06:39 +1200
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On 10-Apr-21 09:39, Nico Williams wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 08:36:59AM +1200, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> On 10-Apr-21 04:05, Nico Williams wrote:
>>> My proposal, fleshed out:
>>>
>>>  - direct the RSE to develop terminology standards;
>>
>> We don't yet know the future of the "RSE" role, but what is certain
>> is that the IETF can't "direct" that person in any plausible model.
> 
> Tell me more.  I mean, I don't buy this assertion.  I'm quite certain
> that the IETF could impose some requirements on publication within the
> IETF stream.

Oh yes, but why wouldn't that happen before the draft goes to the
RFC Editor in the first place?

> 
>>>  - direct the RPC to enforce the RSE's terminology standards;
>>
>> Generally speaking the RPC applies the agreed style guide, so
>> any terminology standards or guidelines would be part of the style
>> guide. We don't yet know the future of how the style guide is
>> maintained.
> 
> Right, well, maybe TERM WG needs to provide input to the style guide.
> That's essentially what it would be doing as proposed, only without
> saying so.  So I don't see the problem with phrasing it in this way
> (style guide update) instead.

That would be fine, but the proposed future RFC model would
only treat that as input, not as a done deal.

>>>  - whenever an author or authors, as well as the responsible AD,
>>>    disagree with editorial changes made or proposed by the RPC, they may
>>>    override the RPC's change,
>>
>> That's always been a matter of negotiation. I don't see that changing,
>> but if it does, it will be an RFC Series policy matter. We don't yet know
>> the future of how RFC Series policy is set.
> 
> See above.
> 
>>>  - but if the RPC feels strongly about it, they may request a WG LC on
>>>    this issue.
>>
>> That seems very weird. The RPC as an organisation has no standing in
>> the IETF process.
> 
> They would be applying the style guide.
> 
>>>  - There would be no IESG or IETF involvement in resolving any such
>>>    disputes.
>>
>> That's self-contradictory. You just suggested a WG LC, i.e. part of the
>> IETF process. And of course if a draft is changed after IETF LC,
>> it needs agreement from at least the AD, and possibly a repeat of the
>> IETF LC and IESG approval.
> 
> To be more precise, the IESG as a whole would get no say apart from the
> responsible AD, and there would be no IETF LC.

That would definitely needs an update to RFC2026.

> We're talking about a s/X/Y/g substitution that would be recommended or
> required by the STYLE guide and which may not get applied.  The idea
> with eliding IESG approval and IETF LC at this stage is that if this was
> controversial, it would have been caught earlier, and to avoid divisive
> later controversy like what we're seeing.

It's much better for everybody, I think, if it was caught earlier.
But RFC8962 does not apply.

    Brian