Re: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE: Review of draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-09)

Mirja Kühlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch> Wed, 12 April 2017 13:39 UTC

Return-Path: <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D88DC129B1E for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 12 Apr 2017 06:39:36 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.901
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2-FKZc2k8ODE for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 12 Apr 2017 06:39:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from virgo02.ee.ethz.ch (virgo02.ee.ethz.ch [129.132.72.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B141D1294B3 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 12 Apr 2017 06:39:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virgo02.ee.ethz.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3w34ln2HRcz15LgJ; Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:39:33 +0200 (CEST)
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at virgo02.ee.ethz.ch
Received: from virgo02.ee.ethz.ch ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (virgo02.ee.ethz.ch [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9qyDx5dXKoHu; Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:39:32 +0200 (CEST)
X-MtScore: NO score=0
Received: from [192.168.178.33] (p5DEC24E1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.236.36.225]) by virgo02.ee.ethz.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPSA; Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:39:32 +0200 (CEST)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\))
Subject: Re: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE: Review of draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-09)
From: Mirja Kühlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
In-Reply-To: <8E8F6584-768A-4C4A-B30C-902C156033B1@isoc.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:39:31 +0200
Cc: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, "ietf@ietf.org Discussion" <ietf@ietf.org>, "draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits@tools.ietf.org" <draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits@tools.ietf.org>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <37E486C6-62BC-4D55-84E2-750443ED496E@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009E4B818@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <11843452-d76d-50e3-c162-155f4d1621e2@cs.tcd.ie> <20170411171831.GA23461@localhost> <0C53D353-B20C-41B2-9916-41238B520D09@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <8E8F6584-768A-4C4A-B30C-902C156033B1@isoc.org>
To: Matthew Ford <ford@isoc.org>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/pYMQyg8eSpYjSSP-4-Vsn_Ra7AE>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 13:39:37 -0000

Sure, I also figured in the mean time that using a different word could help. However, from the operators perspective there has to be something good which provides an actual positive value for them, otherwise it would not justify the costs. 

However, I strongly agree that "benefits provided to the Internet“ is completely overstated. Maybe this should be "benefits provided to the network“ or "benefits for the network operator“ but I also do believe that the operators do this because they want to improve „the Internet“ and doing something within their own network is the only handle the (currently) have. Or, as you say, we just don’t use the word benefit at all if that helps!

Mirja


> Am 12.04.2017 um 15:29 schrieb Matthew Ford <ford@isoc.org>:
> 
> 
>> On 12 Apr 2017, at 12:52, Mirja Kühlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch> wrote:
>> 
>> describe the benefits in the sense of why do operator deploy those middleboxes.
> 
> Then don’t call them ‘benefits’ - they aren’t universally of benefit. Call them ‘motivations’ or something, but I think a lot of people are reacting to the use of the word ‘benefit’ as that tends to imply something that is necessarily good. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> Mat